7000SXT 1.05" vs 32mm distributor pipe

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by midorix, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,943
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Thanks, perfectly stated. The biggest problem with code and softeners is the minimum flow recommendations of a softener to prevent channelling. That is why we try to limit the systems to no more than 14" for residential, which would give an approximate minimum recommended flow rate of 3 GPM. If we were to do it perfectly, to code, it would require a system 14 design, with three controls, and the tanks would not be allowed to exceed 10" diameter. This would be correct, and to code, but not reasonable nor affordable. Even with 4 bathrooms, 20 GPM peak flow rates is more than adequate for more than 99% of the time. The worst thing that will happen is your softener will produce slightly more than a grain of hardness (hardly noticeable) if you exceed the maximum recommended flow rate. Honestly, do you forsee your family exceeding 15 GPM more than once or twice a year? Especially in states that require high efficiency plumbing fixtures. 2 GPM for showerheads, 1.5 GPM for faucets, 1.28 GPF for toilets, etc. have been the standard in California for many years.

    I hope our information is helpful.
  2. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    You guys are so cool and all of you are making sense! You don't know how much I appreciate that considering I've been muddling around trying to figure out which data or suggestion is correct or not.

    Dittohead..you've "hit the nail on the head"..(pun intended).
    Living in So. Cal for a very long time, and I've been preaching water conservation to my family regularly and I have all the high efficiency plumbing fixtures you described (I like to save environment and money).

    All of you made it my choices clear now:

    1. Pick 2.0 cuft 7000sxt - If I conclude I won't go over 15gpm SFR more than once or twice per year or don't mind if slight hardness comes through if I exceed the maximum flow rate (and I would have to run a full regeneration at 15lbs/ft3 of salt if this happens?)
    2. Pick 2.5 cuft 7000sxt - If would go over 15gpm SFR more frequently but no more than 18gpm SFR
    3. Pick 2.0 cuft 2850sxt - If I want to be compliance with the building code, can find a seller of such unit, and don't mind spending extra $1,000

    Does this sound about right? (only thing not clear is the full regeneration requirement if I exceed the maximum flow rate. If it happens once, I need to do this or if it happens more frequently?)
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Actually I think with your tub filling at 12.xx gpm, you may need larger than a 2.0 cuft.

    And I know you nor anyone else can accurately predict that you'll never need a higher SFR than the 13 gpm of a 2.0' (either 12" x 48" or 12" x 52" [the correct size]).

    I see ditto is now saying you'd exceed it maybe once or twice a year plus he uses a much higher constant SFR gpm for the 2 and 2.5' softeners than me or any resin manufacturer I know of. So since he is saying you'll exceed his much higher SFR gpm, and I use a much more realistic SFR gpm, you should need a larger softener than a 2.0 in a 12" x 52" tank with a gravel underbed.

    The SFR we are talking about is a function of the resin and diameter of the tank, not the control valve although the control valve must be able to allow the flow rate without an excessive pressure loss.

    The size of the distributor tube is not important (except to show how silly the code against reducing the connector fittings is). It will not reduce flow to where you could ever notice it. The same for a regular 1.05" DT or a 1" control valve. The dealers that limit the larger DT to 4.0' or larger softeners could use/sell one for a smaller softener if they wanted to.

    The variations in SFR are due to various distributors using different figures and some dealers are confused and use the SFR of the control valve instead of the resin. I use slightly conservative figures but they compare favorably with resin manufacturers' figures because you only get to do this right when you buy the softener, there is no way to redo it once you have the softener installed without replacing the tank and buying more resin.

    Yes many dealers, plumbers, well drillers, etc. pay no attention to constant SFR of the softeners they sell.

    If I were in still in business and you wanted to buy from me, I would not sell you a softener smaller than a 2.5 cuft.

    No you don't get 64K using different resin volume, the volume is 2.0' and you vary the salt dosage lbs but, you get a max of 60K, not 64K.
  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,943
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Midorix, you are correct in what you said. Also, a softener in California must be programmed at no more than 4 pounds of salt per cu. ft. for efficiency standards. Most companies set their systems at 6-8 pounds in order to maintain higher water quality and for a multitude of other reasons, but Code is Code, so 4 pounds per cu. ft. is what I will stick with. The 2.5 Cu. Ft. system should cost nearly the same as a 2 cu. ft. system, and the flow benefits for your application easily justify it. Do not reduce the pipe size externally on the system either, code does have some allowances for internal plumbing of components to be reduced, this is due to velocity rates, dampaening affects, friction loss calculations, etc are all engineered into the equipment, the external plumbing, the part an inspector can see do not have allowances for pipe size reduction.

    When the calculations were done for your plumbing, the engineer assumes no more than 8 FPS for desiging your plumbing size. This means your house could potentially use up to 44 gallons per minute if every item were used at the same time in the house. A softener that could provide a service flow rate of 44 gpm would be a 6 cubic foot 2850 on a 21" diameter tank. For obvious reasons, that would not be a reasonable system for your application, but it would technically meet all minimum flow requirements for code issues. At some point, common sense has to kick in and a reasonable compromise needs to be done. The 7000 will be available in a system 14 configuration in the future, this will make large residential applications that use small amounts of water the majority of the time a more properly designed and reasonably priced alternative to what is currently available.
    velocity.jpg

    As you can see by the chart, velocities shoud never exceed 9 FPS unless the system id designed, qualified, or engineered for these higher velocities. A riser tube inside of a resin tank is engineered and designed for considerably higher velocities. Water running through copper plumbing at higher velocites can cause considerable vibration, noise, wear, etc.

    Hope this helps.
  5. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    333
    Location:
    California
    You've received some good advice here, but I'll chip in my two cents also, as a homeowner and user of the freely dispensed advice on this forum.

    I have a Fleck 7000SXT 1.5 cu ft softener at 6 lbs/ft for 30K grain capacity to deal with 7 GPG hardness, preceeded by a 1.5 cu ft Fleck 7000 Centaur carbon filter to remove the chloramine from my municipal water 1" copper supply. Like yourself, I was concerned about not decreasing pipe diameter and maintaining a reasonable SFR for softening, as well as not inducing a pressure drop across the softener.

    I did accomplish a low pressure drop across the filter and softener, but I do NOT have 1.5" service like yourself.


    My family does not typically use 60 X 4 gallons per day, we are pretty conservative like many. at 240 GPD divided into 3857 gals capacity (10% reserve has been deducted) we should go 16 days between regenerations. It turns out to be much closer to 21 days between regeneration, the day override setting I have programmed into the valve. We usually use the alotted capacity before the timer forces a regen, so still very salt efficient.

    Some say the regeneration is not frequent enough. However, I think this is only a concern if your water is dirty or has iron/manganese. My water does not, and I have not experienced any ill effects going 3 weeks between regens. I have to agree with Dittohead and others on this point. In fact, if you are to consider SFR as an important system specification, it would be impossible under most water conditions to size a system for 7 day regens unless you have very hard water, while still maintaining a 12+ GPM service flow rate.

    As to your your 1.5" water service, I would be tempted if I were in your position to specify a valve with 1.5" internal ports. I may be biased having lived in a house that had inadequate plumbing before I repiped it to 1", but I really don't like high water velocities and undersized pipes. They are noisy, can cause water hammer, and fixtures interact with each other as they fight for restricted flow volumes. I would suggest it might be worthwhile to get the large 1.5" port 2850 valve and distributor tube to operate with minimal pressure drop in your plumbing, combined with the smaller tank suitable for 2.5 cu ft of resin. You may well end up going 2 - 3 weeks between regeneration, but this will be fine, and also salt and water efficient. Consider a carbon filter to remove chlorine. It is an added expense, but it is really nice not to have chlorine in the shower and your drinking water, and will prolong softener resin life. SST-60 resin is nice and the added expense is small, although not strictly necessary.

    Finally, I prefer a reverse osmosis system under the kitchen sink for drinking and fridge water, fed by softened water. Salt is removed, and the taste is much better than the softened water, even though the whole house is carbon-filtered.

    It sounds expensive, but ordering the proper equipment online is far more affordable than calling an expensive water guy.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.
  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    1.5 * 6 = 9 lbs of salt and that gets you 30,000 grains of capacity. 30,000/9 = a salt efficiency of 3333 grains/lb.

    240 * 7 = 1680 grains used per day. 30,000/1680 = 17.85 days or, 1680 * 8 days = 13440 rounded to 14K. 14000/3333 = 4.2 lbs rounded to 5 lbs total per regeneration. And 14,000/7 = 2000 gallons. 2000/240= 8.3 days. 30,000/7= 4285 gallons. 4285/240 = 17.85 days.

    Now none of that has anything to do with the constant SFR. That SFR is a function of the volume of resin and the tank diameter, in this case a 10" tank and 12 gpm.

    Not true, see above.

    All waters have invisible 'dirt' in them, and 'city water' can be very dirty due the age and amount of sediment in the water distribution lines the water runs through from the treatment plant to your house.
  7. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Lifespeed, thanks for your input as well as everyone else.

    I think you brought up a good point which I need to figure out is what would be my family's typical usage be.
    Would we use the water softener as much as the this big house is capable of providing or will we just use partial?
    I do believe everyone here who has been so helpful are providing the right advices based on limited information that I posted here.
    This is where I contemplate, as like you, my family's water usage has been relatively conservative for past 8 years in this house (350 gallons per month including sprinklers is about right so actual water softener usage is probably in the 200s range). This is why I'm somewhat leaning towards 2.0 vs 2.5 ft3 even if it means I just have to be careful from SFR perspective.

    In regards to 1.5" vs 1.25", I came to the conclusion that the distance that will be running though 1.25" distributor pipe is so short that impact would be minimal. At least that's what the physics/math will say. We'll see if it will be true in real life. And since I don't plan on selling the house anytime soon, I'm not as concerned about the building code as well (along as I'm not harming the environment or creating any hazardous situation).

    I'm also not concerned about the drinking water as I have Culligan RO system that has been working great.

    I post back here once decision is made and installation is complete.
    I think everyone was nice enough to pitch in their thoughts but I need to make my own decision at the end.
    This is a great forum and thank you so much to all of you.
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,943
    Location:
    Ontario California

    Your point about regenerating is not understood by many. When it comes to regenerations "needing to be done every week", the math does not work in large houses, with few people, and low hardness. A house with a mega shower that needs 6 gpm, plus the rest of the fixtures, a flow rate of 15 GPM may be warranted, but if your hardness is only 5 grains, a softener that can handle those higher flow requiremnts, even regenerated at only 4 pounds per cubic foot may need go 20-40 days between regenerations. Even my house, with 6 people and 17 grains regenerates less than every 20 days and has done so for a decade. I programmed thousands of systems over my 25 years to regenerate in this fashion with no ill affects. As you said, iron, manganese, silt, etc, may justify the need for more frequent regenerations, but in general, for most municipal supplies, it is not necessary.
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Folks....

    That long between regenerations may be OK in southern CA but in most of the midwest and up and down the east coast I don't think it will work.

    And only time, like a year or two, will tell. By that time if there is a problem, the resin will have to be replaced. And it certainly will not work on private well water anywhere.
  10. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Location:
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  11. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,943
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

  13. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Since many of you were very helpful, I thought I report back after couple months of use.

    First, I ended up getting the 2cu ft (64K) Fleck 7000sxt with 32mm distributor tube.
    It has gravel underbed with 8% cross link ResinTech resin.
    It is connected with 1.5" x 1.25" brass connector available specifically for this model.
    The system has following settings:

    DF GAL
    VT dF2b
    CT Fd
    C 64
    H 15
    RS SF
    SF 15
    DO 21
    RT 2:00
    B1 10
    BD 60
    B2 5
    RR 10
    BF 16
    FM t1.2

    Some of the observation after using it for 2 months.

    1. Water pressure is just fine and I have not experienced any loss of softeness even when running dishwasher, laundry, and couple of showers at once. We have not used our large bath tub while doing other things but as mentioned in the above post, we don't use our large bath tub regularly.

    2. As suspected, we don't use water as much as the typical household. Initially, my water softener was regenerating every 14 days via the override as we only used 2,400 gallons every 14 days while this tank provides 3,600+ gallons capacity per regeneration. As you'll notice, I have reset the Day Override to 21 days based on discussion here, advice from vendors, and other forums. I know this is somewhat has differences of opinion but I think it's not a significant risk to foul the resin with 21 days regeneration cycle. I'm also glad that I didn't get 2.5 cu ft (80K) tank as I think it would have been way too big from capacity stand point.

    3. I have the Brine Fill set at 16 which I believe is a equivalent of 6lbs/cu ft of salt usage per regeneration. Based on some feedback here, is this illegal in California? Do I need to change it back to lower salt dosage/BF settings?

    Thank you all again for your help.
    My family is really happy with this unit.
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,943
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Some of your settings are off. The "64K" capacity is theoretical, not real world. See the picture below for proper programming. A 65K unit is typically rated for 48K in a residential application, or less. California requires the efficiency ratings exceed the programming listed below, but... this is the most popular setting for high efficiency in both water and salt, while maintaining very soft water.

    DF GAL
    VT dF2b
    CT Fd
    C 64 48
    H 15
    RS SF
    SF 15
    DO 21
    RT 2:00
    B1 10
    BD 60
    B2 5
    RR 10 5
    BF 16 22
    FM t1.2

    This is assuming that the BLFC and injector are correct. Take a look at the back of the valve, you should see a small white sticker that indicate the BLFC and injector size. you should also remove the small grey clip from the brine line and check to see if the BLFC button matches what the white sticker says. It should be a .25 GPM, but a .125 will work just as well. It should not be a .5. The injector should be a red #0, but a #00 will also work fine.
    7000 2 email.jpg
  15. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Thanks Dittohead.

    I knew in my mind that 64K capacity is theoretical.
    I just didn't put 2 to 2 together by changing the setting accordingly.
    Thanks for your usual advice and I'll make the necessary changes to the settings.

    Yes, my unit has .25gpm BLFC connector.
  16. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Just one final check in.

    Based on all you recommendation and the setup, our water softener is running great!
    Only regret is that I didn't get this sooner and completely bypass the very expensive and unreliable Culligan system.
  17. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,312
    Location:
    Maine
    Ahhhh another culligan fan
  18. silversaver

    silversaver New Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Dittohead,

    My 2.0 cu ft system will be install soon. Do I use the same cheat sheet from above post? I just re-set the hardness base on my water test result. My water usuage were 3 adults + a baby. I assume the hardness "H" I need to change to my water hardness of 25 and BF setting at 22 or different amount?

    The salt time setting 0.25 BLFC setting were "30" for a standard 48,000 grains.
  19. silversaver

    silversaver New Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,943
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The cheat sheet above will work fine, but many people set the salt setting lower. Personally, I prefer to have a slightly less efficient system in favor of the higher quality of water the system will produce. It all depends on your exact water source, competing ions, etc. If you want to program the system to use 20 pounds less salt per year (approximately $2 savings), let me know. I can post the cheat sheets for 4 and 6 pound settings.
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