7000SXT 1.05" vs 32mm distributor pipe

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by midorix, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Here's my data:

    3,400 sft home, 4.5 baths
    4 people (two are 13 and 9 yo)
    municipal water
    1.5" main copper water line

    hardness 15gpg
    iron none
    manganese none
    PH 7
    TDS 550ppm
    sodium 101ppm
    chlorine 0.5ppm
    SFR 12gpm (7 gallon container took 35 seconds to fill)

    I know I want to get Fleck 7000SXT, primarily due to my 1.5" main copper water line and some of the feedback I've read.

    Question: I'm debating on the size of 1.5 ft3 (48K resin) and 2.0 ft3 (64K resin) because one supplier said 1.5ft3 would be too small to use with 32mm distributor pipe as water will flow through the resin media too fast and recommend to at least go to 2.0 ft3. Another supplier said since 7000SXT comes with 32mm distributor pipe as a default so it should be ok with 1.5 ft3 (48K) system. Which is true?

    The only reason I thought of 7000SXT was due to the 1.5" main copper line that I have and would like to minimize the pressure drop. So for my situation is it better to go with:

    1) 7000SXT with 1.5ft3 (48K) with 32mm pipe
    2) 7000SXT with 2.0ft3 (64K) with 32mm pipe
    3) 7000SXT with 1.5ft3 (48K) with 1.05" pipe

    ???

    Thanks in advance for your help.
  2. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The 32MM or 1.05 will make no difference in flow rate on a 1.5 cu. ft. system, but... use the 32mm. The 32mm is not used by some assemblers because it saves them $2 in assembly cost. When you sell a thousdand units a year, that adds up. There is no disadvantage to using a 32MM other than the cost. My personal recommendation would be to go with a 2.5 Cu. Ft. system, this will give you great flow rate potential should you actually use multiple bathrooms at the same time, and set the system to a very efficient salt setting, 4 pounds per cu. ft. The 2.5 cu. ft. system is the largest system before the system size gets overwhelming, and the costs are still reasonable and the minimum recommeded flow rates are still ok. The 7000 is also available with 1-1/2" connectors, so the appearance of dropping pipe size can be minimized. Code does not allow a softener to drop pipe size, but it is common practice by many companies. Even the 2 cu. ft. system will be fine, I would recommend against the 1.5, it is simply too small for a larger house with multiple bathrooms from a technical standpoint. I know many peoiple install the sears unit which has a peak of 8 GPM in their mega houses and they are finwe with it. That does not make it correct.

    Let me know if you need a referral to a company that can do it correctly, I work with over a hundred companies local to you.
  3. wangtao

    wangtao New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    China
    Why not try Kinetico? 2060无电2.jpg
  4. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Kinetico!! That is a terrible choice, over priced and not near as good as the hype says it is. DIYers can't get parts when needed.

    The OP needs to buy online and install it himself or hire a plumber that will follow instructions.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Any large tubs or 2 person showers or showers with body sprays.

    If yes, you need a much larger softener than a 2.0 cuft.
  6. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    I have one large tub that gets used occasionally (no other water hogging features in the house).
    12gpm SFR was based on this tub's faucet opening wide on both hot and cold water.
    Current peak demand is probably 12gpm as well when 3 of the showers are being used (2 gpm each) with running dishwasher and washing machine at the same time.
    My water bill show water usage of 350 gallons per day but this includes sprinkler system that's running 3 times a week which is not connected to the water softener.

    And I agree with Gary. Kinetico is a good system but it's not the appropriate price range or something I can do as a DIY softener
    I do plan to hire a plumber since I don't want to use the 1.5" copper water main line as my practice on how to sweat a copper.

    I also didn't realize the building code requirement of not reducing the pipe size, per Dittohead.
    That was my intention but I could not locate a viable 1.5" distributor water softener without going to the commercial unit with at least 90K resin which is way too large and very expensive for my application so I hope I don't get into any compliance issues with 32mm 7000sxt.

    Based on your feedbacks so far 1.5 is out so I'm now considering the 2.0.
    Based on my water usage today, that would mean it will regenerate every 10 days with 8lbs/ft3 salt setting.
    I've read that resin manufacturers recommend resin be regenerated approximately every 7 days so I thought 10 days is bit on the longer side.
    If I go to 2.5, wouldn't that be too long of a regeneration and too inefficient (larger cu ft water softener require more water and salt per regeneration?)


    Appreciate all your inputs.
    Keep it coming.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  7. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,047
    Location:
    Maine
    2.5 CU/FT and 32mm D tube would be my recommendation. You can go a couple weeks before regeneration if the unit is sized properly and you will not only NOT have problems, you will save on water and salt. Go 2.5 CU/FT you will be happy


    If Kinetico was a terrible choice they would not be one of the largest water filtration companies in the country.
  8. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Thanks.

    Looks like both you and dittohead is recommending the 2.5cu ft, as I'm assuming because of SFR, contact time, and resin bed area?

    I didn't realize Fleck 7000SXT can program and run efficiently at 4lbs salt per cu ft (as I assumed 6lbs is the lowest recommended).
    Based on my guesstimate, 4lbs salt used in 2.5cu ft system would regenerate every 9 days based on 4,500 grain needs to be softened each day (4 people x 75 gal per day x 15gpg). If I go 6lbs salt per cu ft, it then would regenerate every 11 days which may be bit too long per some industry recommendation of regenerating every 7 to 9 days.

    Would 4lb salt per cu ft pass through too much hard water or is it minimal (I've read an article that disadvantage of low salt setting is it may pass through some hard water compared to higher salt setting but it's still considered "soft" for residential applications).

    I don't mind the initial cost as I prefer to get this right once, spend the money, and hoping I don't have to replace it for 15+ years.
    Still up in the air on 2.0 vs 2.5.....
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Every softener has an adjustable salt dose; some companies, like Kinetico will not tell you how to do it but... The minimum salt dose/lbs is whatever the lowest setting the control valve will allow.

    All softeners come with fully regenerated resin and can consistently get down to 0-1 grain per gallon of hardness. You only use the capacity you program the valve for total grains used over the time or gallons used between regenerations. The balance of the capacity is still in the tank; IE you have 90K and program for say 35K, the rest is still there but not used. So you only have to set the salt dose to regenerate the 35K at whatever lbs/cuft that requires and the more resin the lower that salt dose is.

    A 2.0 cuft with regular mesh resin has a constant SFR of 13 gpm. I can see your peak demand while that tub is filling being higher than that, especially as the kids get older.

    If so you will get hardness breakthrough and not much of that and your capacity is reduced while your salt dose doesn't regenerate the excess used resin and you constantly will be getting hardness in your softened water and then must do 2 back to back regenerations with no water use during or between each at the max salt dose (15lbs/cuft) for the volume of resin you have.

    And if this were my house and I were installing a softener, I'd reduce the 1.5" pipe to 1.25" by buying 1.25" plumbing connectors for the by pass valve for my control vlave, and not worry about it.
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    They sell mostly to uninformed consumers but, independent dealers sell no brand name softeners and out number Kinetico dealers by a very wide margin. Plus I would say Culligan has more dealers than Kinetico does and plumbers selling their supply house brands out number both of them.
  11. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,047
    Location:
    Maine
    Very good explanation there. I don't worry all that much about hardness breakthrough for a big tub all that much because most of the time they fill that will soaps and scented oil and other herbal crap that is powerful enough to keep the water hardness from being much of a problem. Of course if someone else is showering at the same time they may be a little pissed off but again, I'm betting that situation won't come up often enough to be a problem. I also would reduce through the softener to 1-1/4
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    In regards to flow rates and pipe reductions etc... code is written so as to keep the velocity within a certain engineered parameter. The 7000 is available with 1-1/2" sweat connectors, these double as 1-1/4" sweat connectors. I agree with gary, reducing your pipe size to 1-1/4" for a short distance will have no adverse affect on flow rate, it will only affect velocity. I would however not reduce the pipe size for a multitude of reasons. If you are having a plumber do it, the cost difference between 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" is minimal. It will also look better, and an inspector (should an inspection be required during the sale of a home, common in many cities in California, electrical, plumbing, etc, must be to code) the inspectors cant see inside of a softener to know that the manifold is 32MM, it also does not matter, again we are talking about the difference between velocities, inside of a system we can exceen 10 FPS.

    Regenerating once a month is fine for a softener on amunicipal supply. I would recommend frequent regenerations if you are using the softener for iron or manganese removal (not usually a good practice, but very common) My personal unit has regenerated once a month for over ten years, as does almost every portable exchange tank used in the US. Many years ago it was beleived that regular regeneration was necessary, then again, the standard mechanical automatic softener could only be set for no more than 12 days. Fleck later introduced a 35 day timer variant to the 5600 that is still available today. With the electronic metered controls, the need for over rides became a feature since some people would leave there house for months on end and the systems would see no water flow, that is a problem. As most professionals on this site will agree, regeraating less than every week is fine, we would not recommend much more than a month, but as long as water is regularly going through the system, it is not a problem.
  13. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    You guys are awesome.

    Yes, my plan is to use Fleck's 1-1/4" x 1-1/2" brass sweat connection (also my plumber's recommendation) so I think that's pretty much settled.

    I know from the usage capacity perspective, 48K is probably the right size so my driver of the capacity decision is the SFR as both of you have pointed out.

    Since we only use big tub occasionally and not really the norm, I am leaning towards to 2.0 cu ft (which I know is somewhat contradicting to your suggestions).

    I'm just balancing some of the recommendations from other discussions and trying to come to my own judgement on what the appropriate size is.

    I'll follow up on the posting here once I've decided and the system is installed.

    Thanks again for all your help.
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Either 2.0 or 2.5,you will be very happy. From a paperwork standpoint, the 2.5 is more proper, from a real world standpoint, you will probably never know the difference.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Man you sure are good with that California dreamin' PC speak and fortune telling.

    Do you know the OP to be able to tell him regardless what he decides you know he'll be happy with it?

    Maybe it's simply because you haven't sold to an end user in decades and won't be selling to him and you don't care if he gets it right or not. Maybe since you're into codes, you could tell him how the code says even a 2.5 cuft is not large enough for his 4.5 bathroom house and neither is the 1.25" valve or its distributor tube.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You are missing the importance of having used capacity that is not able to be regenerated with the salt dose being used, and how that affects the water quality until that resin is regenerated fully. That has to be done manually, no control valve/softener can do it automatically.
  17. midorix

    midorix New Member

    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    San Diego
    Hi Gary.

    So do you think I'm taking the wrong path by going towards 2.0 cuft?
    I know we have 4.5 bath but it will never be used all at once.
    Probably the ideal is 1.5" distributor tube but again, many require 120K grain capacity to make this work (that's pretty much what I see as the minimum grain capacity in the market with one unit selling at 90K capacity).

    I've also noticed that the 64K units comes in two different tank sizes 12x48 and 12x52. I'm sure the SFR is driven by resin volume but I also noticed that the SFR is quoted differently between these two tank sizes (I'm not sure why) unless SFR fluctuates really do change based on the tank size and type of resin used (mine is quoting 18.4 gpm with 1.05" distributor tube which means 32mm distributor tube should have higher SFR or maybe this is max rate and not constant). One I was planning to order is 12x52 tank size.

    I've also received several feedback from different sellers and forum members like yourselves and majority were recommending sizes between 48K to 64K based on the stats noted above. However, I also know some sellers just use simple math by just factoring usage and not considering other factors like SFR and those considered such factors are recommending 64K (or someone has put it, correct sizing terminology is 2.0 cu ft since 64K can be achieved by adjusting the salt dosage using different resin volume).

    I've read this article which gave pretty good insight on sizing: http://www.wcponline.com/pdf/0304 Water Softners.pdf
    I've also found this calculator to be most useful: http://www.apswater.com/Water_Softener_Calculator.asp

    Hence based on all of these factors, it's pointing to 2.0 cuft (64K) sizing based on my very novice research.

    I've also received some push back when I inquired about 2.5 cuft (80K) as they mentioned it's too large, not good for resin if regeneration cycle is too long (contrary to dittohead's pesonal experience), etc.

    Trying to sift through all of these information (some probably not correct) has been a challenge, and I can see why many choose to go local dealer (like Kinetico) to get this done.

    Again, I appreciate you, Tom, and dittohead's help and value all of your opinions (even though those opinions may be slightly different from each other).
    I would then take those opinions and make my own decision and live with it...literally.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  18. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,047
    Location:
    Maine
    From a code standpoint a 2.5 cu/ft is not big enough but then again, from a code stand point every single tankless water heater installed does not meet code either. However, code enforcement officials recognize that the chances of exceeding the capacity of either device on a regular basis is slim to none and because of the new energy and water conservation standards that have not yet been fully integrated into the codes, most will allow the installation.
  19. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Correct, I may not sell to end users anymore since that would be an obvious conflict of interest with my customers. I do however install 3-4 units a month for testing, prototypes, etc, in commercial, residential, and industrial applications. I only stopped doing regular field work a few years ago, where I was regularly installing 3-5 units a day residentially, or 2 units a day commercially. Not sure why my knowledge and experience would be diminished, bashed, or belittled by anyone on this board based on my lack of "selling to the end user". It has also been recommended to reduce the pipe size, a definite code violation in California, then followed up with a contradictory statement. Considering the OP understands the flow needs of his family, the lack of heavy water using items, and the OP also knows that with a 2 cu. ft. 7000SXT his estimated peak flow rate of 18 GPM, with a maximum recommended service flow of 15 GPM will meet his needs. The reason for the recommendation of a 2.5 Cu. Ft. system is to bump the maximum recommended service flow up to 18 GPM, which will match the est. peak flow rate. A 1-1/2" system, with a 2 cu. ft. tank will only yield a couple of extra gallons on the peak flow rate.

    As to the true 1.5" units, the 2850s or similar valves can be installed on 2 cu. ft units and up to 20 cu. ft. While a 2 cu. ft. 1.5" system is not common, and it may be difficult to find online. See the attached picture below for specifications on all the common available sizes for the true 1.5" system. Again, for your application, it is probably not necessary, but it is the correct way to do it. For most 1-1/2" plumbed houses with 4 bathrooms, the 7000 on a slightly larger than normal tank is the most common design, or a 2850s as shown below. Figure approximately $1000 extra for the job completed due to the additional plumbing requirements of the 2850s. A 3 valve bypass, MIP connectors, t's, labor, and the higher system cost is what makes the 7000 so popular for large residential.
    2850s.jpg
  20. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,047
    Location:
    Maine
    Well I think you are "picking nits" here as usual considering all three of us are pretty much recommending the same set up. I have to base my thinking on what the OP is telling us and he is telling us that the chances of exceeding the SFR are slim to none. If he's worried about an inspector bitching about reducing the inlet and outlet than by all means, stick with the 1-1/2 connections, it's not like doing so will break the bank.

    Nice to see you back in form though. Thought you might have been sick or something :cool:
Similar Threads: 7000SXT 32mm
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Need help with Fleck 7000SXT programing May 25, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Can you convert 7000SXT from filtering to softener model? Apr 22, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Buying a Fleck 7000SXT model Apr 4, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Fleck 7000sxt potassium setting help. Mar 20, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Fleck 7000SXT - Sizing Confirmation Please Jan 6, 2014

Share This Page