4x3 Donut XH Cast Iron Hub

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by jasesun23, Mar 30, 2012.

  1. jasesun23

    jasesun23 Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    nyc
    I have another thread where I'm remodeling my bathroom. I removed the old lead bend down to the cast iron hub. I'm trying to find the right sized donut to get a water tight seal but am having some problems.
    I've taken measurements using a 1/32 ruler and to the best I can read the ID of the CI pipe is 5 4/32 (5.125). The ID of the pipe changes a little up or down but that seems to be the best measurement I can get. I've also taken some masking tape along the inside of the pipe to get a circumference. Assuming the pipe is mostly round I can figure out the average diameter. Circumference was 16.1875 which give me a diameter of 5.153.

    Spoke to Fernco and my closest options are
    44UX-305 - 5.05 OD and inside diameter made for a 3"pvc sch 40 pipe
    412-305 - 5.147 OD and inside again made for 3 inch pvc
    A426-305 - 5.21 OD again same for inside

    My main problem is I cant find anyone who has any of these or will order a single one for me. Half the plumbing places I call tell me the service weight one will work. I have 3 service weight ones and they are very loose.

    Any suggestions? The only one that comes up online is the 44UX-305 which I believe will be too small.

    Also once I do find this part I need is there a correct way of installing? PVC into donut first then into cast iron hub or donut into CI hub then PVC into donut.
    Do I use sealant anywhere? One picture I saw looked like there was black silicon where the pvc goes into the donut.

    Thanks for any help
    Jay
  2. jastori

    jastori New Member

    Messages:
    118
    Location:
    Illinois
    The 'Rep Locator' at fernco.com turned up the following two contacts for NY. Not sure if they might be able to help at all....

    Altherm, Inc.
    Water & Sewer – Plumbing
    Englewood, NJ
    Phone: (201) 871-0500
    Fax: (201) 871-0314
    Service Area: NYC, N. NJ

    Empire States Assoc.
    Water & Sewer – Plumbing
    Ballston Spa, NY
    Phone: (518) 602-0271
    Fax: (518) 602-0277
    www.esarep.com
    Service Area: NY
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,915
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Have you tried installing the PVC yet?
    Often times, the pipe will have to be pounded in and will expand the rubber into the joint.

    If I'm working with a hub for 4", I like to use a 4x3 flush bush. I like the thinner rubber gaskets. I haven't had good success with the 4x3 gaskets.

    [​IMG]
    I normally just pull the lead out of the cast iron tee, and use a 4x3 flush bush into a insert rubber pipe donut.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  4. jasesun23

    jasesun23 Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    nyc
    Thanks Jastori. The customer service rep I spoke to gave me a couple locations closer to me. I will try those. After another call they gave me an online plumbing store called wholesale plumbing. They can get me any of the 3 for 16.95 plus 7 dollars shipping. But since they are special order they are non returnable.
    Terry that may of been dumb of me but i did not try the 3 inch pvc in the donut. I still have one I didn't return so I will try that with the PVC in it. Without the PVC it slid in so far that the lip that usually is outside the CI actually fit inside the CI hub. The pipe hub donut label says 4in SV CI x 3in. schd.40.

    Terry or anyone else would you mind explaining the difference between a 4x3 flush bush vs a 4x3 gaskets? Maybe a pic?
    Is this what is meant - use a 4 inch donut (not a 4x3 donut). Then use a small piece of 4 inch pvc in that. Then use a 4x3 flush bush , basically a piece of pvc that brings a 4 inch pvc pipe to a 3 inch pvc pipe. Then I can use 3 inch pvc from there?



    Thanks
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,522
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    I am probably an anachronism, but I have never tried using a rubber gasket into an older hub which had a lead/oakum joint. When those were used there was no need for a "standardized hub dimension", (in fact there was often an offset where the two halves of the mold fit together), since the lead oakum would adapt to anything, so unless you are lucky, and you get all the scale out of the hub, your gasket may not fit.
  6. jasesun23

    jasesun23 Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    nyc
    HJ - I have read every thread related to my situation and in every one you stand by your recommendation of not using a donut. And now while I am experimenting I completely see where you are coming from. I can see where the two halves of the pipe come together. There is no ring inside the hub at the two points where the mold fit together. Really wanting to do this myself I was left with two options. Donut or leave some of the brass ferrule and use a no hub type clamp. I've also read a bunch of posts where you say the brass ferrule is tapered and its not a great idea to use a shielded coupling on it. Out of curiosity, hypothetically if you only had those two options which one would you choose.

    My local plumbing supply store had a 4" XH Donut and a 4x3 flush bush. I'm going to get that soap and give it a try tomorrow. If that doesn't work I can either try a bigger XH donut or have a plumber come in a relead some pvd to the hub.
  7. jasesun23

    jasesun23 Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    nyc
    Just 2 more question to show I don't know what I'm doing.

    To help get the Donut and PVC bushing in I have read to use Soap. Is this some special soap I get at home depot or plumbing supply store or are we talking about Dial dishwashing soap on top of my kitchen sink?

    Guy at the plumbing store said a bushing might not be the best idea to reduce the diameter. Said a bushing doesn't go that far back. That it maybe a better idea to use a 4 inch pipe and go an 1.5 past the end of the Donut. Then on the outside use a 4x3 reducer to get to the 3 inch pipe size. Any thoughts on that?

    I dry fitted the donut and could barely get it in. I'm thinking this may work.

    thanks again for everyones help.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,932
    Location:
    New England
    DW soap is fine...
  9. jasesun23

    jasesun23 Member

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    nyc
    Sorry to bring up an older thread but I had a licensed plumber come and finish up some stuff I couldn't manage/ didn't want to do wrong. He ran some copper pipe to correct locations for new vanity and shower valve system. He removed my pvc sch 40 solvent welded overflow and drain kit, which was perfectly lined up with a brass gerber system (not sure why but just let him do it).
    My only concern is the toilet drain system that everyone was helping me with above. I ended up buying a 4 inch xh dual-tite gasket
    http://www.plumbest.com/compression-gaskets/dual-tite-gaskets-30504.html
    A 4x3 bushing to fit in it and was going to go from there. The problem I was having was I couldn't get the 4x3 bushing into place. Once the donut was in the hub no amount of lubrication or strength or mallet on a 2x4 could get it in. I also tried using 4" pvc pipe directly into the donut instead of the bushing. Even beveled and lubricated I could not get it in. Even tried making one of these jigs but not enough room in the area
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...PVC-into-donut-gasket-for-Cast-Iron-soil-pipe
    I know this is why HJ doesn't used donuts in this setup and somehow Terry only needs to tap it a couple times with a hammer. So this is when I called in the plumber. Thought he was going to magically make it work with some special technique or tool but after 10 mins he said this is not going to work. He ended up using a short piece of 4" CI pipe with and O.D. of 4.25 -4.3 instead of PVC which has an O.D. of 4.5. With a medium amount of force he got the CI pipe in but should I be concerned? There is no wobble or wiggle in the pipe but if press on it there is some movement. Also with a decent amount of force you can rotate it. From there he used a shielded no hub reducing clamp to go to 3" PVC. Should I be worried or do you think this is fine?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  10. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,522
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The ONLY option I would choose, especially if the floor is open above it, would be to install a 4" cast iron closet bend using a lead/oakum joint. Doing it this way would give you a connection with absolutely NO movement. when stress is put on it.
  11. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,244
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    Here we would have to do a pressure test on the system for the inspection, which leaves little doubt as to it's integrity.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  12. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,932
    Location:
    New England
    There is no standard on the ID of a CI fitting which is why Fernco makes LOTS of different donuts. If you got the proper sized one for that particular hub, it would have worked (I think they come in about 1/16" increments to account for different sized hubs). You'll probably be okay with what's there if it took some force to install. Because rubber is just that, rubbery, often a hammer doesn't work well - constant pressure is often called for to insert the thing.
  13. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,522
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; Here we would have to do a pressure test on the system for the inspection, which leaves little doubt as to it's integrity.

    Just for a replace closet bend? You have tough inspectors or codes. And WHO would get it inspected in the first place?
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