41K grains on 4lbs salt/ft3 Above or Below average?

[Fargo]

I have the Hach HA-71A hardness test kit and have been testing my hardness since I installed my softener. My hardness after softening is 0ppm and I wait until 1 gpg as considered by threshold for break through.

I have been routinely getting 41k grains on 4lbs salt/ft3 resin. 1.5 ft3 of SST 60
This means I am getting 6800 grains per lb/salt.

This seems way way above average

I read and used the calculator at http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm
and it seems this is way above average and anything out of the "average" raises flags for me.

Just checking to see what you all think?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Long time reader/stalker. First time posting. Be gentle =)

 

[Reach4]

Looks to me as if Purolite only expects you would get 27,000 of hardness treated. Could it be that your controller is programmed to a flow turbine that has fewer ticks per gallon than the turbine that you actually have? What is your controller, your BF time, hardness, and your BLFC GPM?

http://www.purolite.com/customized/uploads/pdfs/SST60.pdf

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

While your low volume test sample maybe indicating 1 grain breakthrough at 41K grains, you are no doubt experiencing breakthrough long before that while higher (typical) water flow rates are occurring. That would be similar to a vehicle continuing to idle when virtually out of fuel but then immediately stalling when placed under load.

SST-60 resin is rated marginally higher in capacity than standard resin as the document R4 linked to indicates. Purolite specifies 15 lbs/cuft salt will regenerate 31.1K grains/cuft whereas the same quantity of salt will regenerate 29.4K grains with their C-100 resin (standard resin). That will be the typical maximum capacity for each of those two resin types.

With SST-60, using only 4 lbs of salt per cuft will regenerate 18K grains/cuft X 1.5 cuft = 27K grains maximum for your softener as R4 mentioned.

There is more to the operation of a softener than utilizing capacity. One factor in determining the appropriate softener size needed to satisfy the household, is to establish the constant flow rate required. While 1 cuft of resin will typically support a constant flow rate of 9 gpm and 1.5 cuft will support 12 gpm, those rates utilize the entire resin volume. As capacity is consumed, the rate when hardness breakthrough occurs will decrease.

Your softener should be restored to full capacity (ie: 46,650 grains) by performing 2 - 15 lb/cuft regenerations back-to-back. Assuming your water contains no iron or manganese, you can then set the maximum usable capacity at 27K grains which is appropriate for your 4lb/cuft (6lb) choice. That will then leave unused capacity remaining which will help to ensure adequate flow support even right before regeneration occurs.

While 4 lbs/cuft is very salt efficient (27000 / 6lbs = 4,500 grains/lb), over time, water utilized for regeneration will be substantially greater as regeneration will be more frequent than is needed for a higher salt setting.

You installed a softener to treat a hard water condition. While you want to be responsible and efficient, you also need to effectively treat your water problem. That should not require micromanagement but involves making appropriate equipment and programming choices and then allowing the equipment to carry-out the job it was designed for and purchased to fulfil.

 

[Reach4]

I see it as a research study.

The hypothesis that you exceeded the SFR during extended times during the interval could be a good explanation.

 

[Fargo]

Looks to me as if Purolite only expects you would get 27,000 of hardness treated. Could it be that your controller is programmed to a flow turbine that has fewer ticks per gallon than the turbine that you actually have? What is your controller, your BF time, hardness, and your BLFC GPM? View attachment 31343 http://www.purolite.com/customized/uploads/pdfs/SST60.pdf

This is why I was asking. Using their chart this is what I was expecting.
My controller is the Fleck 5800 XTR2.
Hardness is 22 gpg uncompensated. Last time I checked iron was awhile ago
If BF time stands for BF time it is set at 10 mins
BLFC .125 gpm

While your low volume test sample maybe indicating 1 grain breakthrough at 41K grains, you are no doubt experiencing breakthrough long before that while higher (typical) water flow rates are occurring. That would be similar to a vehicle continuing to idle when virtually out of fuel but then immediately stalling when placed under load.

The 0ppm to 1gpg criteria is something I arbitrarily set for my own reference. I figured that was a good place to be/end since I am starting out at 22 gpg.
What would be considered breakthrough? 5ppm, 10ppm?
My peak flow, which I measured prior to purchasing my softener, is 9gpm. This is why I chose 1.5ft3 of resin.
We really never reach that much flow, ever. The most I have seen is when two showers were going and that was 5gpm. So honestly I wouldn't be expecting any breakthrough during normal usage.

While 4 lbs/cuft is very salt efficient (27000 / 6lbs = 4,500 grains/lb), over time, water utilized for regeneration will be substantially greater as regeneration will be more frequent than is needed for a higher salt setting.

You hit the nail on the head. I am trying to achieve a good salt/water effeciency balance. At 41k gpg, 2 people-120 gpd, it took 2 weeks to do a regen. With what I was reading above at 27k gpg I should be doing a regen every 10 days.
If I leave my breakthrough criteria where I established it, it would seem I have hit on a good balance?

Thanks again for all your help
Cheers

 

[Reach4]

Ignore. Posted by mistake.

 

[Fargo]

Any thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

You are doing a fine job.

http://standards.nsf.org/apps/group_public/download.php/9248/Softener Facts 4-2010[1].pdf says 1 grain defines breakthrough.

You had two proposals that could explain the apparent over-performance. I have another idea in the last paragraph below.

I note that your test is supposedly good for up to 20 grains if I read correctly when I looked it up today. However the Hach 4B is made for 30. I suspect that is not causing significant error. You could always test half distilled and half test water, and double the result.

I have your BF calculations. With 4 pounds/cuft, I calculate that 16 minutes BF would be needed to give the 2 gallons of water for the 6 pounds of salt use. So it appears more anomalous than it does if your calculation was right on. One thing comes to mind. Suppose your BLFC is more than 0.125? Maybe the label is wrong. Maybe the BLFC is missing. And I don't know what would happen if the BLFC was installed backwards. You could test by running a refill cycle manually after re-routing the brine water tubing to a measuring tool. Either weigh a bucket before and after, or measure with measuring cups.

 

[Fargo]

You are doing a fine job.

http://standards.nsf.org/apps/group_public/download.php/9248/Softener Facts 4-2010[1].pdf says 1 grain defines breakthrough.

You had two proposals that could explain the apparent over-performance. I have another idea in the last paragraph below.

I note that your test is supposedly good for up to 20 grains if I read correctly when I looked it up today. However the Hach 4B is made for 30. I suspect that is not causing significant error. You could always test half distilled and half test water, and double the result.

I have your BF calculations. With 4 pounds/cuft, I calculate that 16 minutes BF would be needed to give the 2 gallons of water for the 6 pounds of salt use. So it appears more anomalous than it does if your calculation was right on. One thing comes to mind. Suppose your BLFC is more than 0.125? Maybe the label is wrong. Maybe the BLFC is missing. And I don't know what would happen if the BLFC was installed backwards. You could test by running a refill cycle manually after re-routing the brine water tubing to a measuring tool. Either weigh a bucket before and after, or measure with measuring cups.

So there was a slight misunderstanding in nomenclature. I thought BF stood for backflow, now I see it stands for BRINE Flow. My tank refill is set for 17 minutes. This was auto programmed by the 5800.

I will check the flow on my BLFC to ensure I am getting the flow I need.

Thanks again for all your help. =)
Cheers

 

[Reach4]

Is that the Fleck 5800 XTR2? http://waterpurification.pentair.com/en-US/product/fleck/fleck-5800-xtr2/ ?

 

[ditttohead]

If it is an XTR2 valve, then you also need to define the BLFC button size in the master programming. From the factory they are generally genric, the OEM is supposed to do final programming excluding the hardness etc, this is done by the installer or dealer. If your BLFC button is set incorrectly, you could be using twice, or even 4X the amount of salt you thought you were using.

 

[Bannerman]

now I see it stands for BRINE Flow

It actually stands for 'Brine Fill' as the amount of minutes water is to flow into the brine tank. As you now state that BF is programmed for 17 minutes - 17 X 0.125 BLFC = 2.125 gallons X 3 lbs/gal = 6.375 lbs of salt.

A BF number will be programmed by default by the valve manufacturer since a number of some sort needs to be included. The valve manufacturer does not necessarily know what size softener the valve will be installed on nor do they know the specific water hardness capacity needing to be programmed. The BF number will need to be changed by the installer at each installation location.

The 0ppm to 1gpg criteria is something I arbitrarily set for my own reference. I figured that was a good place to be/end since I am starting out at 22 gpg.
What would be considered breakthrough? 5ppm, 10ppm?

Each grain per gallon hardness is equal to 17.1 ppm.

Programming a softener is not done arbitrarily but follows established and defined procedures.
A softener will routinely remove all hardness to provide 0 gpg regardless of the hardness amount (within limits). Once the resin has removed a specific quantity of hardness, that utilized capacity needs to be restored which relies on sodium from the salt brine. The quantity of that brine corresponds to the specific capacity that is to be restored.

Your initial post indicated that you are regenerating 41K grains with only 6 lbs of salt. That is inaccurate as 6 lbs will not regenerate 41K capacity. As previously stated, Purolite documents indicate 6 lbs salt will regenerate 27K grains in 1.5 cuft of SST-60 resin.

Softeners are not typically set to regenerate when hardness breaks through but are programmed on a mathematical basis to restore the capacity utilized long before softening capacity is exhausted. By waiting until 1 gpg breaks through before regenerating, signifies capacity has been or is near exhaustion.

While you indicate your usual household water flow requirements are not high, as softener capacity is consumed, the threshold for hardness breakthrough decreases so that breakthrough maybe occurring at 1 or 2 gpm or less, even while some unused capacity remains.

Edited to add: I now see Dittohead's post. I had anticipated the BLFC number stated was actual but it now seems it maybe a number pre-programmed into the valve control. The BLFC and settings will need to be verified.

 

[Fargo]

If it is an XTR2 valve, then you also need to define the BLFC button size in the master programming. From the factory they are generally genric, the OEM is supposed to do final programming excluding the hardness etc, this is done by the installer or dealer. If your BLFC button is set incorrectly, you could be using twice, or even 4X the amount of salt you thought you were using.

I did change the BLFC in the programming.

 

[Fargo]

Is that the Fleck 5800 XTR2? http://waterpurification.pentair.com/en-US/product/fleck/fleck-5800-xtr2/ ?

Yes

 

[Fargo]

It actually stands for 'Brine Fill' as the amount of minutes water is to flow into the brine tank. As you now state that BF is programmed for 17 minutes - 17 X 0.125 BLFC = 2.125 gallons X 3 lbs/gal = 6.375 lbs of salt.

Programming a softener is not done arbitrarily but follows established and defined procedures.
A softener will routinely remove all hardness to provide 0 gpg regardless of the hardness amount (within limits). Once the resin has removed a specific quantity of hardness, that utilized capacity needs to be restored which relies on sodium from the salt brine. The quantity of that brine corresponds to the specific capacity that is to be restored.

Your initial post indicated that you are regenerating 41K grains with only 6 lbs of salt. That is inaccurate as 6 lbs will not regenerate 41K capacity. As previously stated, Purolite documents indicate 6 lbs salt will regenerate 27K grains in 1.5 cuft of SST-60 resin.

Softeners are not typically set to regenerate when hardness breaks through but are programmed on a mathematical basis to restore the capacity utilized long before softening capacity is exhausted. By waiting until 1 gpg breaks through before regenerating, signifies capacity has been or is near exhaustion.

While you indicate the usual household water flow requirements are not high, as softener capacity is consumed, the threshold for hardness breakthrough decreases so that breakthrough maybe occurring at 1 or 2 gpm or less, even while some unused capacity remains.

Just to clarify I have not programmed my softener arbitrarily. I do understand the chemistry behind the brine and regeneration.
In the beginning I followed the SST 60s guidelines of 27k grains and set it to regenerate at 90% of 27K grains or 24K (mathematically this left me with 1 day before exhaustion). My controller lets me see how many gallons since last regen and how long before the next. The night of the first regen, which is set at 0200, around 8pm I took a hardness reading. It was still 0ppm. All is well.

When I do my breakthrough testing I turn on 1 shower and 1 faucet to simulate max flow I might see. Only real way of getting an accurate reading is to replicate the conditions.

As we talked about before I wanted to strike a balance between water/salt efficencies so the next regen I set for 90% of 30k grains or 27k grains (1227 gallons). I was expecting to see some breakthrough. I took a reading the night of the regen and no breakthrough.
I have since worked my way up (reading this forum like crazy) to my latest reading of 41k grains at 1 gpg. At that point I initiated a manual regen. I now have it set to regen at 37k grains (90% of 41K)

The only thing I have changed during all of this is when it regens. Have to have controls to have an accurate reading.

I have set up a custom regen profile which I believe to be responsible for the increased capacity.
Fingers crossed.

Thanks again for all your help and support
Cheers

 

[Reach4]

You really want to see how much water is getting added during the Brine Fill.

Besides the other ways, you could stick a dipstick to the bottom to measure the water after the brine has all been sucked out. Record the depth. Do the same test after the Brine Fill. You could do that tomorrow. You can probably use the tube that contains the brine safety float to do your dipstick access.

Then do the math knowing the dimensions of your brine tank. Compare computed gallons to the expected. OK... there is a problem. You need to compensate for the space taken up by the salt. I would guess roughly 50%, but I would bet that you could devise a test and you would know the correct factor. And then we would know!

I think pulling the brine tubing and measuring directly would be the most accurate.

 

[Bannerman]

Disconnecting the brine tube and measuring the BF volume would be the most accurate method.

I have since worked my way up (reading this forum like crazy) to my latest reading of 41k grains at 1 gpg. At that point I initiated a manual regen. I now have it set to regen at 37k grains (90% of 41K)

You may want to start testing sooner. If the stated BLFC and settings are accurate, I expect the post regeneration capacity will now be slightly more than 27K as all resin capacity had been virtually exhausted and was then regenerated with only 6.375 lbs of salt.