3 valve tub valve distance from C/L to front of tiles, need 2 5/8"

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by AcidWater, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    On my 1966 Eljer 3 valve tub assembly, the distance from the centerline of the valve to the front of the tile is 2 5/8".

    The diverter valve is broken off inside it, so the whole thing needs to be replaced.

    I bought a Price Pfister, but its not nearly long enough; only about 1 5/8" from C/L to the back of the threads for the chrome bezel. So won't clear the wall enough to screw the bezel on.

    So what brand will be long enough? Hard to find dimensional drawings on the Web, the consumer pictures only show the trim.

    I really don't want to have to set the valve forwards; not only would it require installing elbows, but I would have to cut all the way through a 2x4, and then sister around the obstruction it to keep the supported.

    Also, I want a brand that I can use a traditional bibb having a bibb seat and bibb washer; the well brings up grit and I think a ceramic type will get ruined, and they are expensive to replace.
  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Keep in mind that if this is also a shower, you can repair the existing valve, but if you replace it (in most places), you must replace it with something that meets today's codes, and that one does NOT. All new shower valves (and a replacement/remodel counts as new) are required to have anti-scald technology in them which generally is not available with old style, conventional valves.
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    IF you have a "modern" Pfister Pfaucet the escutcheon retainer can go in either way. So it gives you a wide range, (insert the "long end" into the wall), and if you need more, they have "stem extensions", (I would have to go out to the truck to get the part number), to give you another inch.
  5. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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  6. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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  7. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    Found this exploded diagram:

    http://common.csnstores.com/common/marketing/pricepfister/ppr1002_parts.pdf

    Appears that the valve body itself has a very short distance from C/L to the end of the part; do they just make up the distance to the front of the wall by using a long stem ???

    Don't they make valve bodies that actually have a longer distance ? The design shown means that when I remove the stem/bonnet assembly, leaking is going to go behind the wall instead of being directed in front of the wall.

    Or can I get an extender ? My existing piece has a couple inches of large diameter, threaded, sticking forwards of the wall, and the bonnet screws into the front end of it. The flange screws onto the outside threads. It also has a bibb seat that is 1 1/4" long, so the stem can reach it.

    In this diagram, it looks like the long nipple (to which the flange is attached ? ) screws into the inside of the packing nut. That is NOT the design on the original.

    At this point I just want to hire a plumber; but I need to know exactly what he will need to do and make sure he arrives with the required parts.
  8. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    Not seeing a "retainer" in the blowup. Does every model have this?:

    http://common.csnstores.com/common/marketing/pricepfister/ppr1002_parts.pdf
  9. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    Is that inherent in the ceramic valves?
  10. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    NO...it is inherent in most single handle valves.

    I agree that the PP website is the worst. As far as I can confirm from supplier, the Verve Model 01-312 is still compression ( rubber bibb washers) not ceramic. The esctcheon retainer hj referred to is used on ceramic stems only. The compression stems simply have a long stem, and a long escutcheon, with a 3" long nipple, and all that is where you get your adjustment range.

    You are barking up a rope if you want the forward end of the valve BODY to be outside the wall. Not going to happen. The stem seal is VERY reliable and has not been a serious problem over the years. Yes, a leak is possible, but you could get hit walking across the street today.
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    The ceramic stems ARE more durable than the compression ones and will not wear because of grit. (which is why they are called "lifetime"), but, IF they do, then call 1-800-PFAUCET and Pfister will send you new ones.
  12. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    I mean when I have removed the Stem & Bonnet to replace the compression (bibb) washer, even though the main valve is off, there is still leakage. Built in 1966 dude. I guess I could open an outside sillcock; they are lower than the bathtubs.

    Very confused about this 3" nipple. On this diagram:
    http://common.csnstores.com/common/marketing/pricepfister/ppr1002_parts.pdf

    it has a nipple (972-110). It appears to have a rather small diameter.

    Are you saying that
    1) this nipple would be cut to length sufficient to extend from the front of the wall far enough to screw the Escutcheon onto its outer threads and
    2) that the rear end of the nipple is screwed directly onto the valve BODY using its outer threads and
    3) The nipple is larger in diameter than the Stem & Bonnet, and contains an inner thread, so that the Stem & Bonnet can be screwed into the front end of the nipple? and
    4) the bibb seat would be replaced with a longer 1 1/4" bibb seat so that the stem can reach it?

    Because that it what it looks like on my existing unit. I had been thinking that this long threaded "pipe" was an integral part of my valve body. It is about 1 1/8" outer diameter.

    But it is still true that the distance from C/L to the start of this threaded portion is about 2 5/8"; much longer than the replacement I bought and obviously much longer than the valve body shown on that diagram.

    Hmm... the distance from front of wall to my valve C/L is 3"
    The new valve I bought is 1 1/4" from C/L to end.
    So a new nipple would need to be (3 - 1 1/4) = 1 3/4" plus the distance threaded into the valve body plus the distance beyond the wall to necessary to screw on the Escutcheon with enough threads to be sturdy.

    This "nipple" is actually a special part -- it has to have INSIDE threads for the Bonnet & Stem.
  13. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    I don't know what you have. Sounds like you are barking up a rope to make that work. But for the PP shown, the nipple is what the escutcheon ( flange) attaches to. You do NOT cut the nipple. The nipple is long, and the flange is deep.....giving you lots of adjustment range. The nipple screws INTO the inside threads on the packing nut.

    If your main valve does not completely shut off the water, you need to fix that, rather than trying to rube goldberg the shower.
  14. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    if you BOUGHT a PricePfister 3 valve diverter, it should NOT be the one in your drawing, unless it is very old. ALL the new ones are ceramic stems and use an entirely different flange and retainer. The one in your drawing is NOT adjustable other than within the range of the nipple AND the stems. If you try to "bury" the valve deeper in the walls, you can get a "cut to length" piece with the same thread, and extensions for the stems. MOST valves will leak inside the wall if you do not shut the water off entirely. It is a function of how the stem units are made, and where the valve is positioned relative to the tile surface.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  15. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    The installed unit is an Eljer circa 1966.
    The reason for changing the whole valve assembly is because the diverter stem is BROKEN OFF and water shoots out the hole.
  16. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    It is for sale here:
    http://www.wayfair.com/Price-Pfister-Bedford-Diverter-Tub-and-Shower-Faucet-Trim-01-31-PPR1002.html

    Their link to the exploded parts drawing is:

    http://common.csnstores.com/common/marketing/pricepfister/ppr1002_parts.pdf

    The one I bought is different; it has ceramic stems but when I handled it I noticed that it was so much shorter from C/L to end of the casting than my existing unit; and I realized that if I removed the stem assy, the opening would be behind the wall. And even though the one for sale above has compression stems, the valve body is also short.

    So is it standard practice that these short-bodied units will end behind the wall? Or do you cut the 2x4s away in order to move them forwards enough? Is Eljer just a totally unique long length?
  17. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    [QUOTE}

    So is it standard practice that these short-bodied units will end behind the wall? Or do you cut the 2x4s away in order to move them forwards enough? Is Eljer just a totally unique long length?[/QUOTE]


    With all due respect....you are not wanting to listen to what we are telling you. YES, it is standard practice for the valve body opening to be within( behind ) the finished wall. You are not likely to find anything different, and if you move it that far forward, the trim will NOT work. Sorry to be harsh, but there are some realities in plumbing. IF you just push on and actually solve your riddle, by all means send us some photos.....we are not crazy and are willing to learn ( but don't try to teach hj much!)
  18. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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    So you normally have to use a long socket to remove the stem assembly? I've always just used a wrench since its in front of the wall. Seems like Eljer made a superior design. Its just common sense to design it that way !!! Wonder why American Standard stopped production when they got Eljer.

    How about if I take a piece of pipe large enough to fit over the end of the valve body, and tilt it downwards a little. Fasten it somehow, and plug the back with some duct seal. That would make sure any drips were diverted to in front of the wall... probably have to enlarge the hole in the tile a bit...
  19. AcidWater

    AcidWater New Member

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  20. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    American Standard is WAY, WAY, down on my list of preferred faucets. The Pfister faucet has a lot more latitude than you giving it credit for. That is the reason the retainer tube has a long and a short side from the "ring". The short side is used when the valve is close to the surface and the long one when it is set back further. You are making the process a lot more complicated than it has to be. Incidentally, the body for the ceramic and/or compression style is EXACTLY the same, which is why it can be converted to the ceramic style.
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