3" ouside fit flange too low...

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Sambucajoe, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. Sambucajoe

    Sambucajoe New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Hi this is my first post on the forum after days of lurking trying to find the answer to my question. I have taken the advise on this forum and not used a inside fit 3" flange tofit inside my old damaged abs flange, which I need to raise due to travertine tile I am waiting to lay. So I rented a jackhammer and broke around the old flange and painstakingly chipped away the old flange from the "soil pipe"..aka 3" pipe sticking out of ground. I then dry fit the 4x3 abs flange OVER this pipe; however it appears the "sleeve"...sorry for my horrible pluming terminology...the "sleeve" of the flange only overlaps the pipe by 1 inch at most, and I cannot push it further down or the tile and thinset will not fit under. Here is a pic to better explain:

    I put those tile scraps there and raise the flange 1/8 over it and as you can see there is a massive gap between the top of the cut soil pipe and the flange.. so here are my questions:

    1. what is the name of the proper flange to use in my situation given theta the pipe is cut too low and I need the flange to rest flush on top finished floor.

    2. should cut edge of the 3" pipe be snug against the bottom of the flange as to not create a "lip" and possiblity for water to escape through gaps, or is this not a big deal.

    3. what is the best method for installing the flange after the tile is installed..can I dry fit everything and then pour the concrete, while wrapping 3" pipe with cardboard, go ahead and tile with the notches for the screws, then remove the cardboard slip in the flange with glue and screw so that it is for sure a snug fit between tile and flange?

    4. assuming you guys have a good flange recommendation and that is out of the way..when I do pour the concrete, how many days does it take before I should hammer-drill into it to fasten with tapcons. I'm worried if too soon it won't bite properly; however I need to finish this asap and can't afford to wait a week. I have read about an epoxy solution, is this where that comes into play?

    Thanks a lot for taking the time to read through this, hope to here from some pros soon, the sooner I get done with this washroom the sooner I can have my life back, get a paying job, and spend more time with my baby son.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2010
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    Most of the plumbers do not like the all-plastic flanges...they want one that has a stainless steel ring on it. There may be some brands of flanges that have a longer throat which would give you more overlap. What you have would probably work, but see what the pros have to say.
  3. Sambucajoe

    Sambucajoe New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Thanks Jim
    I'll be looking for one with a stainless steel ring when I go to a specialty plumbing supplier and return this one to HD.
  4. Sambucajoe

    Sambucajoe New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    thanks Gary, but it seems to come off easily enough, mabey the dirt or dust on pipe helps
  5. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,281
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    IF the soil pipe goes down far enough before turning, cut it off lower and then install a coupler and an additional length of pipe.
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    It would be a different story if you tried to fully seat the flange on the pipe...you likely couldn't, or if you did, it would be a bear to get off. Because it is a little short, you never reached the bottom of the taper.
  7. Sambucajoe

    Sambucajoe New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    cacher_chick : "IF the soil pipe goes down far enough before turning, cut it off lower and then install a coupler and an additional length of pipe."

    Thats what I will end up doing unless there is a easier solution. I would have to buy a rotozip bit of some kind, I'll see what HD has in my price range, that will fit into my 1/2 drill and cut from the inside. then there is the question of how long to make this new pipe, should I cut it to be flush with finished floor, slab, slightly under finished... I now know why the pros get paid the big bucks.

    I'll recap my question because it's getting a little off topic, and mabey thats because I havn't explained properly. I knew that installing a coupler was an option from the start but after reading how an inside cutter would be needed thought that someone on this forum could suggest a flange that is extended that will save me from doing this. Is there such a flange and if so would it need to be butted down against the cut edge of soil pipe or is it ok as long as the female end overlaps male end enough....sorry for the long and confusing questions. thanks
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2010
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    Some brands have deeper throats than others and may minimize your problem. The actual overlap is fairly standard, but some have more of a bell, or throat before they start the socket and are thus deeper overall.
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,272
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    get a 3" coupling and a "spigot" flange with a metal ring. Cut the pipe off, glue on the coupling, and then glue the flange INTO the coupling.
  10. shacko

    shacko Master Plumber-Gas Fitter

    Messages:
    561
    Location:
    Rosedale, Md
    Most plumbing supply houses sell a inside cutter thats a cutting wheel and a shaft, they don't cost that much.

    If you decide to use one be sure you put a rag into the pipe so it dosen't fall in.
  11. Sambucajoe

    Sambucajoe New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Thanks alot HJ, I trust your advice and I'll head out to the plumbing store now and pick that stuff up along with the inside pipe cutter. Now all I need to know is the best sequence of steps to install. I'm thinking of this:

    1. I get the coupling on there
    2. wrap it in cardboard pour concrete
    3. pull cardboard once set, install notched tile ( though I don't know how long to wait for concrete to set before tile)
    4. then glue flange to measured length of pipe and fit both down into the coupling as to have it sit down flush ontop of tiles, and screw it in.

    5. How long to wait before screwing into newly poured concrete...can I expidite this waiting by using an epoxy?

    If this sounds good please let me know, if there are any changes I need to make let me know. I am gratefull for all your help. Once done I will post a picture of the finished washroom and toilet. Thanks again
  12. ghetterly

    ghetterly New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Saskatchewan
    Joe, I'm in Canada as well and things are slightly different north of the border! We use the all plastic flange all the time so don't worry about it.

    What I would do is cut the 3" pipe a little further down with a rotary tool. A 2" cutting disc in a drill will work just as well, but slower.

    I would buy a 3" to 4" adapter and a short piece of 4" pipe. Cement the adapter onto your 3" pipe and cement the 4" pipe into the adapter. Then pour your concrete and set your tile. Once that's all good, cement your standard 3" flange INSIDE the 4" pipe. It will slide in nice and snug, but the 4" pipe doesn't have a taper, hence LOTS of "glue."

    You will need all of the parts in hand and a tape measure to figure out where to cut your 3" pipe, but as long as you cut it LOWER rather than higher, you will be fine as you can just use a longer piece of 4".

    As far as concrete work goes, the very best thing you can do is pour the concrete and let it sit for a month or 2. It will shrink quite a bit over that time. Then come back and fill the shrinkage with more concrete. But, it looks like you're pretty tight to the pipe with your hole so you can probably just pour, wait a day or 2 and then tile. If your tiles crack, which they shouldn't, they will be underneath the footprint of the toilet.
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,332
    Location:
    New England
    On a new slab, generally they say to wait a month. On a patch, especially a small one, I'd give it a couple of days.
  14. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,272
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    You are using an internal/spigot flange so NOTHING goes on the outside of the coupling, and you can pour the concrete right up to it. If it has to be slightly below the floor level for the flange to fit properly then use a piece of pipe stuck into the coupling and a piece of cardboard around it to give a little working room. Depending on the length of the flange you may not have to cut anything off of it.
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