3.5 gallon toilets w/rear spud needed - help!

[ChitownGuitar]

Interesting. Well, I will monitor the situation and see if the leaks continue. I agree, it sounds like it should never leak in the wall...but since it only seems to be a problem when the toilets back up, maybe by preventing the backups, we can solve the problem that way. Plus, preventing backups has other benefits...like not having a backed up toilet!

Also an interesting theory on the seal being the source of the problem. We can look at that next if the leaks continue. Thanks for the advice.

I can't believe 1.6 gallon toilets have such poor bowl wash. At least in our case it does. That alone will send me to find used 3.5 gallon toilets...

As for guitars, I have some old Takamines that sound nice but pale in comparison to my baby...a McPherson redwood/rosewood. Damn expensive, but damn worth it. I highly recommend saving up for one, you won't regret it.

Thanks for the advice everyone! I'll post in this thread again later if the leaks continue.

 

[Jimbo]

I must say for one final time, there is a problem in the piping which should not be ignored.


After looking at your video clip again, I will say that possibly the flush is a little weak. This may just indicate that the cartridge in the Sloan tank needs to be replaced, or possibly the entire supply group. I have a Mansfield Quantum with Flushmate ( 15 years now). I have had to replace the supply group several years ago, and have replaced the cartridge twice.

I would say that on my toilet, if it has any fault, it does sometimes fail to pick up paper riight at the front, like yours. Believe it or not, the best solution is, as I believe you said was mentioned by your plumber, is to change brands of TP. Charmin is the worst, as the so-called "soft" papers do not dissolve in water as readily. I use Scott or Costco brand.

In comparing, though, I get much more wash from the front than I saw in your video, so you might also check and clean the rim ports all around, and especially at the front.

 

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[ChitownGuitar]

Given the additional cost associated with inspecting the pipes again after a camera did not detect anything unusual the first time, our best bet in my opinion is to get as much water flowing through the pipes as possible and hope that backups do not recur, thereby stopping the leaks. If the leaks continue, then you're right, we probably need to do a re-inspection of the line. Know anyone good in Chicago?

My toilet (in the video) is in a separate area of the building. It has backed up once, but no leak downstairs resulted. It is only 1.5 years old and has performed like it does in the video since day 1. That is why I don't like 1.6gpf toilets. It has nothing to do with the TP...that only matters when referring to whether or not the TP gets caught within the pipes.

 

[Terry]

The tank has never finished filling in the video.
For a complete flush, the pressure assist tank must be fully charged.

There is less bowl wash from the front then I have seen.
Take a coat hanger and make sure the rinse holes under the rim are clear.

Either the tank won't fill complietly, or you pressed the lever too soon in the video.

The rear outlet bowls need special gaskets, either the rubber or the reinforced wax designed for a wall connection.

 

[Jadnashua]

When drain lines are checked during construction, they plug each end and either fill it with water to check for leaks, or cap it and pressurize it. THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY LEAKS in the drain lines. If it leaks in the walls, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM that is not being caused by the toilets. Now, the quality of the toilets purchased may be in question...there ARE some good 1.6g toilets, but there are a lot more bad ones. Dumping more water down with each flush is masking the bigger problem.

 

[Patrick88]

Dumping more water down with each flush is masking the bigger problem.

I agree there is something wrong with the drains and i will repeat my self. If somebody is flushing stuff that doesn't belong in the drains it will cause the problem you are having. It does not matter if its is leaking at the second floor or the 3rd floor it could have been flushed from the 5th floor, or anyplace.

I had a closet bend that was clogged from toilet paper and the toilet was made in the 70's(5gal flush). the paper was that extra thick stuff. With the roll on the wall the home owner still said "wasn't me".

I would smoke the drains no need to cap all the drain. the traps should hold fine. Just need to cap the vents and you would find the leak.

 

[Scott]

I just watched your video and Terry's right; there's little if any rim-wash at the front of the bowl and the second flush was indeed actuated before the system was fully charged resulting not only in a less powerful flush but a lower volume of water as well. There could also be a deficiency or "flat spot" in the slope of the pan (front portion of bowl).

Also, using a zip-tie or thick pipe cleaner to sort of auger out the rim outlets sometimes gets results too and you don't risk cracking or chipping anything.

It doesn't happen a lot but the tank-to-bowl gasket can sometimes block the inlet to the rim-wash channel so it may be a good idea to unbolt the tank and confirm that neither the rim or jet inlets are obstructed. You could also squirt water (from a plastic shampoo, ketchup, or mustard bottle) into both inlets to identify the obstructed channel.

If all else fails, contact Flushmate tech support with the serial number and see if they have any additional suggestions. The phone number and web address should be on the serial number sticker.

 

[ChitownGuitar]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Let me try to respond to the last few since my last message:

Terry: First, thanks for taking the time to post in this thread. Second, to address your comments, you'll note that the tank was completely full on the first flush. This has happened a lot, so I don't think that it's just an issue of us not waiting long enough. Even if it were, shouldn't it flush down the first time? As for taking a coat hanger, I suppose I can try that, but this toilet has been like this since day 1.

Jadnashua: The leaks could have been at the wall connections as well. But regardless, the only time it leaks is when there is a backup that requires having the pipe be rodded out. Now, our plumber believes that the backup occurs because either a) Someone is using Charmin Ultra, which is known to clog pipes, or b) Because there are too many 1.6 gallon toilets on pipes that were built for 3.5 gallons, so there is not enough water pushing waste through, so eventually it builds up and clogs. Yes, it is a problem that the pipe leaks, HOWEVER, if it is only causing damage when there is a backup, why not do whatever possible to avoid backups? That is a much cheaper solution than tearing out drywall in 5-6 units and incoveniencing many people and spending tons of money to find the leak, which we would only find if there was a backup at the same time.

Patrick88: Can you explain what is meant by smoking the drains? If indeed it just causes smoke, how would we find the source of the leak since it is inside the walls?

Scott: See my comments above responding to Terry. If there is a deficiency or "flat spot," can that be rectified, or is that part of the design. As noted above, it has been like this since day 1. Where is the serial number sticker? Is Flushmate what is inside the American Standard?

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Scott]

I think Terry's point may have been that if the pressure-assist system was fully charged, the second flush may have caught the paper and pushed it lower so it would go down the drain. Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, in all but the worst cases, one pressure-assist flush should effectively clear and cleanse the bowl.

A flat spot can't be rectified and isn't part of the design but an unfortunate possibility because most modern toilets are still molded like they have been for a century or so. The a raw material (called "slip") is poured into a two or three piece mold, allowed to harden slightly to a still soft consistency (think ceramic green-ware) then taken out of the mold and and fired in kilns. The fixtures start out much larger than the finished product and shrink as the moisture dries out of the "slip" during the firing process. Ambient temperature, humidity, and actual drying time in the factory can vary and these variations can sometimes result in the larger surface at the front of an elongated bowl dipping or flattening and becoming slightly less sloped than intended.

At least one well-known domestic manufacture has minimized this potential by using an expensive injection-mold type process for many of their elongated offerings. Unfortunately, expensive manufacturing processes add cost to the consumer's purchase price and many people are reluctant to pay a higher price for "invisible" quality. To most people, a toilet is a toilet; it should be cheap, perform well in every instance, and last forever, which isn't necessarily a reasonable expectation for 100 year old manufacturing techniques.

I'm pretty sure you have a Flushmate inside your tank. The serial number label should be on the top of the Flushmate, clearly visible. If it's an older model, it may have a small "plate" attached instead of the current red, white, and blue sticker. If it's missing, illegible, or incomplete, you can always visit the Flushmate Website for telephone and email contact info. Tech support relies on the serial number to identify the specific configuration and applicable warranty terms so without it, if they suspect a performance issue, there may not be much they can do beyond advising you of the current replacement part number.

 

[Patrick88]

The smoke test is done by placing a smoke bomb in your main drain and capping off your vent stack(s).
You would need to open a wall to find the leaking smoke during the test. Trying another test like filling the vents with water would be costly because of the cost of water and the damage caused by water to your building. Having that much pressure on the bad spot might make a small leak bigger.

If you open the wall that has the leak already that would be best because they should replace the water damaged wood and or sheet rock any ways.

 

[Bowlsquatter]

Chitownguitar
I was wondering if you resolved your plumbing prob. I also live in a condo which has rear outlet floor mounted toilets and my pressure assisted toilet crap out after three years and based on my research I defn want to stay away from them (kholers and gerbers have known been known to explode causing injuries and water damage..., unrealiable at best).
http://www.purpleunicorn.com/page/page/5564614.htm
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E0DD1239F93AA15751C1A963958260
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/kohler_high_pressure.html

So I want a gravity flush, but I'm also concern that the 1.6 may not have enough flushing power for rear outlet toilets. And 3.5 back outlet... impossible to find. I'm at wits end. Was wondering how you folks took care of the prob.

Thanks!!