240v receptacle conversion

[Ken Tannenbaum1]

I'm replacing an electric range that runs off of a combined 40/40 breaker in the panel. The stove's being replaced by propane and I want to split that circuit into two usable receptacles for a dish washer and microwave. I'm know I have to replace the heavy duty breaker with two smaller breakers but not sure how to handle the three wires connected to the old receptacle. Help is appreciated!
Thanks, Ken

 

[Reach4]

How many wires are run? I presume you don't have metal conduit.

If 3 with no green/bare ground, you might still be able to do this in accordance with codes with a 2-pole GFCI breaker. Those are not cheap. If you can run another cable for one of the circuits, that would let you use less expensive breakers and be able to turn off each circuit independently.

You would also want to see what code applies in your area AFCI as well as GFCI is needed for an outlet for a dishwasher in a kitchen in NEC 2014.

NEC 406.4(D)(2)(b)) says that you can use a 3-prong 120 volt outlet with the ground terminal open open if it is on a GFCI and there is an appropriate marking "No Equipment Ground".

I am not an electrician, and I think you will need further info. This is not a simple area. There will be those who will make statements that may be inaccurate. I am not sure what the current deal is. I am pretty sure that the answer can vary in different places.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jacobsond]

2 hots 1 neutral and no ground for the old style 220v. Looks like 1 new circuit to me if you have 1 hot 1 neutral and relabel and reuse (green tape I think is ok) the other hot as ground.
2 circuits shared neutral and no ground? I don't know about that. Need an electricians opinion on that. I would think no.

 

[Ken Tannenbaum1]

I'll have to check further but there are three wires, two hot, one bare silver twisted neutral and they are NOT in conduit. Power can not be brought to this area of the house so I use what's there and change the breaker no matter how expensive, or I live with no added circuit if it can't be done. Thanks.

 

[Jadnashua]

You must have insulated wires for both the hot and neutral...ground can be a bare wire. Sounds like you only have the ability to make one circuit there, or you could maybe wire it to a 120vac subpanel and run new stuff from there.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I'll have to check further but there are three wires, two hot, one bare silver twisted neutral and they are NOT in conduit. Power can not be brought to this area of the house so I use what's there and change the breaker no matter how expensive, or I live with no added circuit if it can't be done. Thanks.

A good electrician can fish wires pretty much anywhere, so I would never say that it can't be done.

 

[Ken Tannenbaum1]

Sure, fishing wires is usually possible, but not in this house, which was given the underwriters seal when built but every nook and cranny is also sealed. Simply put, there's nothing ordinary about it.

 

[Ken Tannenbaum1]

You must have insulated wires for both the hot and neutral...ground can be a bare wire. Sounds like you only have the ability to make one circuit there, or you could maybe wire it to a 120vac subpanel and run new stuff from there.

 

[Ken Tannenbaum1]

From the replies, looks like I can use the two hots, relabeling one for the neural. NOW, about the ground, this conversion from the #6 three wire receptacle is specifically to power a dishwasher which we've never had. So can I do one of these two options: 1) pigtail 12 gauge solid copper to the twisted aluminum and attach it to the ground bar (I see there are methods of combining the two metals) OR 2) tie into the copper water line servicing the dishwasher to create the ground.

 

[Reach4]

A 120 volt subpanel looks like it is most likely to come close to meeting code, if that concerns you.

Codes don't recognize a value in separate protective grounds. If that bare wire were insulated, then using that as a neutral, using the other two as hots, and using the 2-pole GFCI at the breaker panel would have been a supportable and functional option.

 

[hj]

quote; If that bare wire were insulated, then using that as a neutral,

The dryer DID use the bare wire as a neutral for its 120 v. circuitry, and it was ALSO the ground.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Sure, fishing wires is usually possible, but not in this house, which was given the underwriters seal when built but every nook and cranny is also sealed. Simply put, there's nothing ordinary about it.

What you are talking about. Unless you live in a castle built with marble, any home built with wood with studs and joists can be fished always.

There are special tools made for this, like 6-foot long flexible drill bits, and fiberglass fishing poles with extension ends, like when they drill for oil.

I do it all the time. The only time I run into a surprise is when there is concrete or a metal beam.

 

[Jadnashua]

You can make junctions between copper and aluminum, but you must use devices specifically approved for it. The wire that looks like aluminum, might be, or it may be tinned copper, you'd have to scrape it to see what's underneath. AL approved things often have an antioxidant gell in them to keep things happy, or maybe a specific crimp design. The safety grounding conductor can be smaller than the current carrying ones, so if you're going to swap the breaker for a 20A one, 12g would be fine. Not sure what the minimum size is if you want to keep the circuit at 40A and then feed a small panel, though.

What you could do, verses what you can do now are different. Neutral should be an insulated wire, not a bare one in the wall feeding the device. Neutral does carry current...the safety ground should never unless there's a fault.

 

[WorthFlorida]

You may want to leave that 220v outlet as is. Someday, an electric range may want to be used instead of a propane. A home my son bought had a propane stove that was installed by the previous owner. Propane gas, at least in Central Florida can get expensive so he decided to go back to an electric range. The outlet was already there. and the previous owner had a exhaust hood added that vented to the outdoors. Almost non existent in Florida homes since most are 100% electric appliances.

The most important part of the conversion is you must have an exhaust hood that exhaust to the outdoors. The easiest example is during those cold days in the Catskills and the windows are shut tight and a turkey is put into the oven for 3-4 hours. You're using up the oxygen in the home and may get carbon monoxide buildup. An exhaust hood will create a slight lower air pressure in the home so outside air will seep into the home. If you have new air tight windows than crack open a window in the kitchen when using any gas appliance for extended periods.

 

[hj]

All electric home, or not, that has NOTHING to do with whether you need a range hood. It exhausts heat and fumes from the cooking area. In my case I do NOT have a hood, but that is because we cook with magnets and there is very little extraneous heat or fumes.

 

[WorthFlorida]

The need for the exhaust is for natural gas or propane fueled stove. The gas uses up oxygen in the home and an air tight home carbon monoxide can build up. When gas was the norm in most large cities like Boston & NY, the windows were drafty and no insulation in the walls so the house could breath. That is no longer the case.

Here is some comments that touches this topic.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/austin/1898509-residential-building-code-question-venting-gas.html

New York State: There is information out there and more searching would be needed.
http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/new_york/NY_Residential/PDFs/Chapter 15.pdf

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ny/st/b400v10/st_ny_st_b400v10_17_sec001.htm

 

[DonL]

tie into the copper water line servicing the dishwasher to create the ground.

That is a No go.

Good Luck.