2008 Champion4 Toilet--any better?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by uproar, Feb 20, 2008.

  1. uproar

    uproar New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Greetings,

    I just purchased a brand spanking new 2008 model Champion 4 two-piece toilet with a round bowl--I think it is a 2007 model. The tank is model 4266, and it has the newer flush valve. Unfortunately, I bought it before reading all of the negative reviews, that pesky class-action lawsuit thing, etc....fortunately, it's all still in the box and uninstalled. Now, most of the bad reviews, it seems, appear to apply to the somewhat older Champion models, from about 2005 and before, without the designation "Champion 4"--I can't find much on the most recent models--one bad review specifically referred to the tank model 4260. It appears that the toilet might possibly have been resigned? Has American Standard, in fact, made any recent improvements in the "Champion 4" to address the issues--the leaking flush valve, the ill-fitting, wobbly tank that leaks where it attaches to the bowl, etc.? I can't get an honest answer from most of the usual dealership sites, even less from the American Standard sites, but what I want to know, is there any reason at all why I shouldn't just toss the whole thing right back into the car and drive it back to Lowes to exchange it? Thanks!

    Rory
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2008
  2. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Tell you you the truth I haven't installed one... I burned out so bad on them, I only install customer supplied units, and then only after warning them of the problems that theey have had. Tell you the truth the word must be out people aren't asking me to install them.

    Some how I doubt its better... Most products if they have problems get the bugs out by the 2nd or 3rd redesign. If they can't do that I doubt they can get it in 10 redesigns. If big box can't let you see the junker up close and see if the rocking tank is still there or, not why buy it. Lowes has a history building with junk products and class action lawsuits... Look at this site for the following discussions on class action lawsuits:
    Whirlpool flamegard/flameloc
    Zurn pex
    Am. Std. Champion
    All still on the shelves at Lowes and being sold every day despite known defects and a class action lawsuit. You are right you cannot depend on a straight answer from them. They know each of these products is junk yet they steer the unsuspecting customer right to it! Do you want to know whether the Champion 4 is any good... Ask the Lowes clerk, I don't know!
     
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  4. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio
    We welcome you to be the one to test it and report back every few months if you like.

    Personally I don't know why a reputable company can't design a toilet until it works right then put it into production.

    Why would you think if they didn't get it right the first 2-3 times they have it right now?
     
  5. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Occupation:
    Service Plumber, Outdoor Temperature Relief Owner
    Location:
    Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati Area
    I have installed 2, reworked 3 AS3's with installing the 4's flush valve.

    I must say the AS4 is flushing decently without 20 moving parts inside the toilet, but time is on their side as to how long this new design creeps up in being problematic.

    They've went from complicated back to simplistic, copying Toto's original idea of flushing with a large surface area of water out of the tank using such a large flapper.


    No complaints as of yet, but AS has been down this road before. Kinda like an abuse victim that goes to therapy even though they get beat up on a regular basis. ????


    A customer of mine bought a bunch of AS toilets for his bank and wife's doctor office; all of those toilets after 3 years are clogging, trip levers are snapping off for no reason.

    That money saved is indirectly turning out to be a huge downfall, costing him a minimum of $90 per visit.

    He should of listened to me and installed Toto Drakes knowing the amount of use those toilets were going to endure.
     
  6. uproar

    uproar New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Can anyone recommend something besides Toto toilets? They don't seem to be available anywhere near where I live (very rural area).
    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2008
  7. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Location:
    Ohio
    American Standard Cadet 3 found at Low*s
     
  8. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Master Plumber

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Occupation:
    Sensitivity trainer...to be caring and loving to a
    Location:
    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    cant even make a good toilet

    I tangled with a few AMerican Standards last week....

    the home owner had installed them upstairs and both
    leaked at the tank bolts....doing damage to the ceilings.

    very, very difficult to tighten those toilets down good
    without a large deep well socket.....

    they will fail, and cause troubles its just a matter of time..


    it baffles me that just like Whirlpool, they cant admit
    mistakes....
     
  9. plumbtired

    plumbtired New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2008
    Occupation:
    retired and loving it
    Location:
    Portland, OR metro
    The new-and-improved flush valve produces a real Champion!

    If the Champion you bought has the new flush valve (flapper type), then you are OK.

    I have two of the older Champions, purchased from HD in 2005. I fought the leaky piston-type flush valves for two years. Then, through this terrific forum, I discovered there was a replacement flapper-type valve for the Champion. I phoned American Standard and they sent two free, new-and-improved valves promptly to me. What a difference! I now have absolutely no complaints about the Champion toilet.

    I, too, have read about leaks between the tank and the bowl...we found that IF you install it CORRECTLY, seating the tank tightly and evenly onto the bowl via alternate-sides tightening, you will have absolutely no problem with leaks. The new flush valve does the "flush deed" perfectly. We did, however, have to customize the hookup to the flush lever, using the old chain hookup from the "clunky" (i.e. the noise it made when flushed) piston valve, instead of the clevis pin hookup that came with the replacement flapper-style flush valve. The clevis pin would not fit into the smaller holes on the flush lever arm.

    Don't hesitate to install your new Champion toilet. I found that American Standard provides excellent customer service; phone them @800-442-1902.

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  10. maddog

    maddog Engineer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    near San Jose, CA.
    I agree - the customer service rep I talked to was excellent. New flush valve, spud gasket, and tank bolts arrived in about a week. Hope to install it this weekend. Although I did not have the leaky seal problem, I have had occasional problems with the top of the flush tower disengaging without lifting the flush tower -> no flush. And I'd like to get rid of the 'clunk'. I'm glad to hear that it still flushes well with the new flush valve.
     
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