200 amp service split between two panels

[CubGirl]

Hi,

I have a rental property that had two units but one 200 amp panel. I paid electricians a lot of money to split it to two meters and then two panels.

I requested the original 200 amp panel to be discarded (it had 40 spaces) and replaced with a 24 or 30 space 125 amp main breaker panel. I asked for the 2nd unit that was getting it's own (new) panel to get a 125 amp 20 or 24 space main breaker panel as well. My understanding was this was ok because load varies and not all circuits are on at all times. The electricians agreed to this plan.

During installation, I was told they didn't make 125 amp breaker panels with 30 spaces. The plan was to use a 125 amp main lug panel with 30 spaces and put the main breaker in one of the circuits (split bus??). I was told it would be labeled as main. I was told the 2nd panel was no problem to purchase as a 20 space 125 amp panel was easy to get.

I asked what size feeders they were running to each panel and I believe they said 2/0. I asked if 2/0 could handle 125 amp and was told yes. I think they said the service cable was 4/0.

Before the work started, I emailed the company and told them that after the split, I was going to install a new tankless H2O heater in the 2nd unit. The requirements per the manufacturer were 125 amp panel with a 60 amp double pole breaker and a #6-2 wire.

After the job was complete, here's what I got: same 200 amp breaker panel with a 100 amp main breaker on the bus. In the 2nd unit I got a 20 space 100 amp main breaker panel. I have not paid these guys yet.

I cannot believe they did this after we talked about two 125 amp panels. Then the electrician said he re-installed the old panel with the main breaker on the bus because he couldn't find the main lug 125 amp 30 space panel. He didn't discuss this change with me.

Not sure why I got two 100 amp panels when I asked for two 125 amps. This was done Friday and I emailed them my concerns.

Is it feasible to have 2 125 amp panels with a 200 amp service? If it's not feasible, then I wish they would have told me before doing all this work. Now I wonder if they even put in the correct size of wire necessary to feed 125 amp panels.

Thanks for any advise you can give...

 

[Standardairconditioner]

I have not paid these guys yet.

Basically you are at fault here due to lack of communication, and you did not get any written work agreements in writing.

You simply don't pay them until you are happy.

I don't know why they did not ask for a deposit, so you have the upper hand in this.

I emailed them my concerns.

I would stop emailing them because anything you write can be used to discredit you in a claims court.

You may want to seek legal help at this point.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Stuff]

First - your version of a lot of money is relative. From his point of view the electrician may have seen you looking for cheap solution so did not spend the time and effort getting the correct solution. Did you have an estimate in writing of what they were to deliver?

Your message is confusing. So you asked for two meters / two services but then you said a 200 amp service? What did you get? Are there inspection stickers on the panels?

125 amp/30 space is not a common panel but available - just a bit more expensive.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...ker-Indoor-Load-Center-P3030B1125CU/206602480

 

[CubGirl]

Hi... I got an estimate that just said they'd put in a new meter & split the services. Here's the meat of it:

"Thank you for the opportunity to quote your electrical project. This price is to install a 200 Amp two gang meter center, to split up the apartments, to fix wires in the attic, and add a new panel in upstairs apartment. This comes with a 3 year warranty on the panel and breakers. To split up the outside lights is an added cost."

Before the work started, I told them I wanted to be specific so we would all understand the requirements. I emailed the power requirement for the H2O heater (to be installed upstairs) and specified it needed to be 125 amps with a free 60 amp double pole that would take with #6 wire. I wanted to be sure I had the required panel amps (125), breaker amps (60) & two free spaces available after they were done. In the same email, I stated I wanted both panels to be 125 amps (because the unit getting new H2O heater is small efficiency -- 600 sq ft -- and should not have more power than the much bigger 1600 sq ft unit downstairs.) I didn't explain that part. I stated the upstairs panel must be 125 amps with 2 spaces available for a 60 amp double pole to accommodate the new heater and then I stated I wanted both panels to be 125 amps.

I had read having two 125 amp panels from 200 amp service was allowed but maybe I read it wrong?? However, when I talked to the electrician, he didn't object or correct me when I said 125 amp panels (he just didn't install 'em). So to confirm what I asked for is do-able, can someone please tell me is it technically possible to take 200 amps from the utility company, use a 2/0 wire to feed each meter and then use 2/0 wire from each meter to feed two 125 amp panels?

I'm trying to figure out why I got two 100 amp mains instead of two 125 amp mains. I'm trying to determine if they simply ignored or forgot the requirements or if it's not technically feasible & they just didn't relay that info to me?

Also, what is the ampacity of 2/0 wire 125 amps (at say 90 degrees)? I read it's different at different temps & for different materials (copper vs aluminum). How can I tell what wire I've got for both temp rating & material?

I keep seeing #2 AWG & 2/0. Is there a difference between # 2 AWG & 2/0?? (They told me they were installing 2/0 to the panels & assured me it could handle 125 amps but why would they then install 100 amp main breaker panels??)

Sorry but I'm a novice with this electrical stuff.

And yes, I've sent them several links to 125 amp panels with 20 & 30 spaces. They now know that I know they're available on the market.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Please, if you can shed any light on this, I would appreciate it!
1) is it technically feasible to take 200 amp service to two 125 amp panels?
2) are #2 AWG & 2/0 wires the same thing?
3) how I can determine what feeder wires to the panels were installed (if that's even possible)?

Thanks,
Cubgirl...

 

[Standardairconditioner]

I emailed the power requirement

That's your first mistake right there. You assume emails are contracts in stone. It's unlikely the contractor did something on their own. You simply failed to get things down in writing on a signed agreement. If you were unsure of a project, you shouldn't have let it begin. It's a lot easier for you to ask general preparedness questions for generalized answers that can help you, because once the job has been done, I mean really, you think an internet thread is going to make them undo everything, like the powers you expect to come from emails?

Sorry but I'm a novice with this electrical stuff.

Best you get another opinion from a licensed professional to make an assessment. Right now your contractors are in charge, you are not qualified to question their work.

 

[Stuff]

That "quote" does not mention replacing the current 200a panel so they didn't do it as it would be a major cost. Just putting in a 100amp main breaker is fine as long as the old panel is rated for one and they installed a hold-down kit for it (basically a screw to keep it secure). 125amp breakers can be tough to find.
Doesn't mention amperage for 2nd panel so they did the minimum - 100amp. Find out the model number of the panel as it may be able to have the main swapped for a 125.

1) is it technically feasible to take 200 amp service to two 125 amp panels?
2) are #2 AWG & 2/0 wires the same thing?
3) how I can determine what feeder wires to the panels were installed (if that's even possible)?

1) Yes. Depends on the exact model installed, though.
2) #2 is smaller than 2/0. #2 aluminum is good for 100amp service. 2/0 is good for 150amp
3) feeder wires should have printing on them

 

[CubGirl]

thanks for telling me about my 3 questions. when you say exact model number, why is that? if a panel is rated 125 amp, shouldn't it be able to take a 125 amp rated wire? or is there something i'm not seeing? i'm going to look but i doubt there's 2/0 feeder wire like they said. it makes no sense to install 2/0 to a 100 amp panel, correct? i'll bet a #2 is going to each panel. that'll make a fix more difficult. i'll look for panel model numbers.

also, i read that one really only has 80% of the amps to use in a load center, because for a draw > 80% of ampacity, the main will heat up (in this case > 80 amps). so that means if someone runs the DW (15a), takes a shower (57a) & runs the dryer (30a) all at same time, the main will pop. is that correct?

FWIW, a contract is meeting of minds, whether oral or written, but written's easier to prove. i expressed my mind in emails & in person. while they didn't put in writing, they did agree to two 125 panels before the job started. they said they'd purchase a 125 amp main lug panel w/ 30 spaces for downstairs and install its main breaker on the bus, like a circuit. (i'd never heard of that before.) they said 30 space, 125 amp main breaker panels were not available to buy; their supplier said they didn't make 'em. i said a main lug panel w/ main breaker on bus wasn't my preference but i agreed to it. they also said upstairs was no problem. it needed 20 spaces and 125 amp, 20 space breaker panels were available. until that conversation, i had no idea spaces were a limiting factor on panels.

it's pretty scummy when owner relays requirements, contractor agrees, only to change "on the sly" without discussion. he could've said it'd cost more $$ for 125 amp panels. i would've agreed or canceled job. (i probably would've agreed depending on cost.) what would be the cost to install 125 amp mains instead of 100 amp?? two or three hundred dollars? that's not even 10% of what i agreed to pay for the work. now we'll fight about payment.

i guess i'll have to hire an electrician to fix this and take those fees out of what's owed for this job. if they don't like that, they can sue. wonder what a judge will say about a contractor who agrees to requirements but fails to meet them? yeah, i guess the contractor can say he didn't agree to 125 amp panels (going for a "he said - she said" scenario) but if he hadn't agreed, i wouldn't have let the job start.

before job started, i emailed panel requirements and we discussed them in person. i emailed them Friday night immediately after the electricity was energized asking why 125 panels weren't installed. (they were closed by then and email was the only way to reach them at that point.) i'd have to be a loon to do all that if we hadn't agreed to anything.

so maybe this is why i was told it wasn't necessary to inspect the job. he said he'd inspect everything for me. i figured that, but wanted to inspect circuits to ensure the units were separated correctly. i was surprised when i found two 100 amp panels. i also found other things i haven't mentioned: 1) no covers on empty spaces, 2) circuits not labeled, 3) a dangling green wire outside. (a green wire, by the gang meters, labeled "Do Not Disconnect This Ground Wire." it was disconnected, dangling. i asked about all of that when i asked them about the panels.)

when i re-inspect, i hope to find two 125 amp mains (the most important thing), space covers, circuits labeled and a connected ground. i dunno, maybe they thought i wouldn't notice these things?

these guys aren't responding to my concerns, maybe because they're in writing? honest people have no problem putting stuff in writing but looks like it makes dishonest people uncomfortable. i had a good relationship with these guys before this and had no reason not to trust them. now i'm embarrassed for being trusting.

this has cost me time & headaches but, ultimately, they'll pay for their mistake... i needed 125 amps for the new H2O heater and that hasn't changed.

whatever happened to a handshake & a person's word?

sigh... thanks for the info. i do appreciate it.
cub

 

[CubGirl]

hi again!

well, i checked and here's what I have:

Siemen's G4040B1200 (it also says G4040B1200CU, G4040L1200, G4040L1200CU). not sure how to tell which one it's configured to. i assume CU stands for copper. maybe the B & L stand for breaker & lug?? this is my 200 amp old breaker that has a 100 amp main breaker on the top right (is that the bus?) i really hope it's an easy fix & i can simply replace the 100 amp main breaker for a 150 amp one. does anyone know if that is possible? if so, yay for me!!

Siemen's P2020B1100CU. this says max rating is 100 amp. this will definitely have to be swapped out because this unit needs a minimum of 125 amps. my concern is the feeder wire. i think it's probably not rated for more than 100 amps (even though they told me it was). probably a new feeder wire will have to be installed. i didn't take the panel covers off to look at feeder wires. i'll do that today. it makes me a little nervous to mess around with panels. i plan to disconnect at the grouped pulls outside. that way i know the entire panel is not hot.

and here's the rest of what i found:
1) the green ground wire is still dangling. can anyone tell what it is? (maybe it was on old meter but it looks new to me)
2) empty spaces not covered on either panel (required by NEC 408.7)
3) circuits not labeled on either panel (required by NEC 408.4(A))
4) when i took the pics, i discovered top left circuit was improperly installed on the 100 amp panel (see pic)
5) electrician removed the attic door for access & it's still off (they promised it'd be put back on Monday)

i did load calculations on the 2 units & came up with 125 amps required upstairs and 150 amps required downstairs. my calcs are posted on the forum. i'm trying to determine if the electrician could have, and should have, done load calcs to determine the size for each panel, and of course if the load calcs look correct. this is my first time doing them.

i believe the electrician should have done load calcs to size the panels. anyone can take 200 amps & split it into two 100 amp, but that's not a real solution to support real loads. maybe i'm way off on that belief so i'm waiting to hear what everyone says about using load calcs to size the panels for these two units.

thank you again for your help...
cub

 

[Reach4]

Siemen's G4040B1200 (it also says G4040B1200CU, G4040L1200, G4040L1200CU). not sure how to tell which one it's configured to. i assume CU stands for copper. maybe the B & L stand for breaker & lug?? this is my 200 amp old breaker that has a 100 amp main breaker on the top right (is that the bus?) i really hope it's an easy fix & i can simply replace the 100 amp main breaker for a 150 amp one. does anyone know if that is possible? if so, yay for me!!

I am not an electrician.. Search for MBK125A, and see what you make of that.

I would consider talking to your electric utility regarding the separate metering. It may be that your service is capable of more than 200 amps total, or that it would cost little if anything to get them to upgrade their part of the service to support 2 meters with 150 or 200 amp load centers.

 

[CubGirl]

I am not an electrician.. Search for MBK125A, and see what you make of that.

I would consider talking to your electric utility regarding the separate metering. It may be that your service is capable of more than 200 amps total, or that it would cost little if anything to get them to upgrade their part of the service to support 2 meters with 150 or 200 amp load centers.

hi & thanks... that's a thought but even if i bring in more amps, the current panels (and feeders too i assume) are restricted to 100 amps each. i'd have no where to send the extra power.

best to you,
cubby

 

[Reach4]

hi & thanks... that's a thought but even if i bring in more amps, the current panels (and feeders too i assume) are restricted to 100 amps each. i'd have no where to send the extra power.

Not sure what you are saying. You have said that one of the existing panels is a 200 amp panel. If you can replace the main breaker with a 125 amp main breaker, it functionally becomes a 125 amp panel I think. So #2 copper would seem to be good.

I really think that a chat with your utility will be useful. I expect they will think separate meters will be a great idea. You want to make sure that what you do going forward is OK with them. I don't know what the acceptable practices are. I think there is not faith that your prior electricians were doing acceptable practices.

If the utility tells you that what has been done is not acceptable, get it fixed. Then try to recover your payments for work that was improper, in addition to that which was different from what was contracted for. Keep good records.

As far as measuring existing wire size, you can get a plastic caliper cheap. That way you need not worry about accidentally shorting something out during your measurements. Also wear gloves while touching stuff in the panels if you are concerned that you might accidentally touch a live wire.

 

[Stuff]

You have legitimate issues that need fixed. You should call them and arrange for a walk through with the owner to review your punch list. If that doesn't get you anywhere then take your pics to the local inspectors office and ask them who they know is good at cleaning up others' messes.

 

[CubGirl]

hi,

i've been studying electricity. i think i can solve this... but it all depends on the wires feeding the panels.

here's my plan: i ask the contractor to do this but if he won't, then i'll do it (with a lot more reading, especially about grounding electrode system and the equipment ground system. anyhooo...

for the 200 amp, 40 space panel (Siemens G4040B1200CU) that had its main breaker removed anda 100 amp backfed main installed on the bus:
if its feeder wire is between #1 AWG - 300 kcmil cu/al @ 75 degrees, then i can remove the backfed main and install a Siemens MBK150A 150a main breaker ($64) where the old main used to be. by doing that, two spaces will be freed (but not needed) and the panel is now 150 amps.

i'm kind of hopeful about this solution because the original 200 amp main breaker required a 3/0 cu - 250 kcmil al, @ 75 degrees. maybe the original wire was untouched and this plan will work.

for the 100 amp panel with 20 spaces (Siemens P2020B1100CU), it's a little trickier. i can do two things, one is easy (if feeder wire is right) and one is hard:
if it has a feeder between 2/0 - #4 AWG cu/al @ 60/75 degrees, then i can remove the main 100 amp breaker and install a ECMLK125A ($8). that's a kit to convert the panel to a 125 amp main lug panel. however, it'll lose its disconnect, but there's a disconnect for it by the meters. that's the easy solution.

the harder solution can be done if the feeder wire is 1/0 cu or 3/0 al, both @ 75 degrees. if either of those are feeding the panel, i can buy a 150 amp, 20 space breaker panel, Siemens P2030B1150CU ($99), which has the exact same footprint of the current 100 amp panel. i'd just disconnect everything, install the new panel and reconnect.

not feeling so good about this solution because the wire on the original main 100 amp panel is 3/0 - #4 AWG cu/al @ 75 degrees. the feeder wire, whatever it is, was just installed. my bet is it's going to be under 1/0 cu, thereby precluding this solution.

so what do you all think?? with a little work, i can have two 150 amp panels or one 150 and one 125 amp.

 

[CubGirl]

Not sure what you are saying. You have said that one of the existing panels is a 200 amp panel. If you can replace the main breaker with a 125 amp main breaker, it functionally becomes a 125 amp panel I think. So #2 copper would seem to be good.

I really think that a chat with your utility will be useful. I expect they will think separate meters will be a great idea. You want to make sure that what you do going forward is OK with them. I don't know what the acceptable practices are. I think there is not faith that your prior electricians were doing acceptable practices.

If the utility tells you that what has been done is not acceptable, get it fixed. Then try to recover your payments for work that was improper, in addition to that which was different from what was contracted for. Keep good records.

As far as measuring existing wire size, you can get a plastic caliper cheap. That way you need not worry about accidentally shorting something out during your measurements. Also wear gloves while touching stuff in the panels if you are concerned that you might accidentally touch a live wire.

hi, yes you're correct... i meant the amps to the panels is constrained by feeder wires. but yes the 200 amp can be modified if the wires will support it. i want to put a MBK150A in the 200 amp panel and take out the 100 amp backfed main that's on the bus. they did install a two unit gang meter, so that parts done. after all these headaches, i'm going to inspect those closely too.

thanks for your great advice!
cub

 

[Stuff]

1 - 150 amp service needs 2/0 al or 1 cu
2 - that 100 amp panel is not listed for 125 amps - you need to replace this panel
3 - you say there is a disconnect near the meter? Is this one for each panel/service? If so what are they rated at as this would be the main disconnect? Also then this needs to be 4 wire to the panels but no disconnect needed there.

 

[DonL]

It sounds to me that you are going to run out of power when you install a new tankless H2O heater.

Did you tell the electrician your plan to do that ?

Good Luck.

 

[CubGirl]

oh i lost everything i wrote! but these are pics of the gang meter & the EQ i'll need to get 125 amps to both units.

i appreciate it very much.
cubby

 

[CubGirl]

1 - 150 amp service needs 2/0 al or 1 cu
2 - that 100 amp panel is not listed for 125 amps - you need to replace this panel
3 - you say there is a disconnect near the meter? Is this one for each panel/service? If so what are they rated at as this would be the main disconnect? Also then this needs to be 4 wire to the panels but no disconnect needed there.

It sounds to me that you are going to run out of power when you install a new tankless H2O heater.

Did you tell the electrician your plan to do that ?

Good Luck.

yes he ignored it...

 

[CubGirl]

OK, i have an update.

for all you guys who said electricians don't calculate loads and that this was my fault for not being clear (i just submitted specs for my new hot H2O heater). i edified myself on the NEC and load calcs. regardless of what i did or did not ask for, the electrician has a duty to meet code. the combined load on the two family is 257A. the optional method is not available because of the code:

"A word about two-family dwellings. The feeder for a two-family dwelling unit is so using the standard method in Part III of Art. 220. When that calculated load exceeds the calculation for three identical units using the optional method of 220.84, the lesser of the two calculations is permitted to be used [220.85]."

so i used the standard method to calculate the load on both units. unit 1's load is 125A and unit 2's is 132A (unit 2 is high because of the H2O heater that uses 13680W when heating). but i provided that info about the future H2O heater install BEFORE the job. he just ignored it!

it took about 5 days for me to master load calculations & the NEC. the electrician had a DUTY to wire the home to meet code. not meeting code is NOT an option. installing a meter base w/ 200A bus & two 125A positions (which he replaced w/ two 100A breakers) and two 100A panels for a building that has a 257A demand load violates code. i told his company they needed to fix this or i was going to take my load sheets to the inspection dept and POCO and see what they said about this job.

basically, the electrician never did a load calc for my building or either unit. we talked it out & he started proposing all kinds of goofy solutions. i told him to go off and do the load calculations & prepare a solution in writing that will fix this problem. i asked him to bring his solution and calculations back to me and i'll look them over. he wrote down the name plate info for everything and and came back a couple hours later. he'd done his calculations & told me he realizes that everything he installed is wrong and he has to rip out EVERYTHING.

i'm getting a new gang meter w/ 400A bus and two 225A positions. i can have 150A or 200A panels in each unit, whichever i want. he has to replace both feeds and the service wire. he actually was kind of happy because he said he learned a lot from this experience. (i'm not sure if his boss is happy though.) i hope he learned to do load calcs before starting a major job.

so for all you guys who don't do load calculations: you must have dumb customers who don't know the difference between their demand load being met vs a system that can't meet the demand. IMO it's derelict for an electrician who doesn't know how, or who is simply too lazy, to do a load calculations.

cub

 

[DonL]

Exactly.

I person should do their homework before class.

Good Luck.