1969 home cast iron pipes plumbing issues

[Yume]

Registered on this forum to get some advice on a very complicated issue that is giving me a huge headache. We have a 1969 home with original cast iron pipes. We have had plumbing issues (backups, bubbling in toilets, gurgling in showers and baths) for a while now. At some point we also had a sewage gas smell coming from one bathroom. One bathroom has flooded from the toilet. All our pipes and HVAC are exposed in our basement. Our basement is a finished space with 7 ft ceilings. All the pipes bring the height down to about 6 ft. We have had a plumber out recently to camera our pipes to check for clogs, and what he found is that we have water sitting in all our pipes all the time. Ultimately he found the reason for this is that all of our pipes in the finished area are dead level. They don't begin to slope downward until they hit the crawlspace. Not sure if this was done during initial installation or a previous owner found a way to push the pipes up toward the ceiling when finishing the space. Nonetheless, he suspects we are going to continue having issues with our plumbing and cannot find a feasible way to fix the issue without redoing all our plumbing, having the HVAC relocated and possibly even excavating our yard to reconnect our plumbing to the main sewer line. We have just spent several thousand to have travertine installed in our basement. Excavating the basement to give more headroom is not an option. Is there anything we can do? Will include some pictures in a bit to give an idea of the situation.

 

[Jadnashua]

Can't overcome gravity effects...the pipes need slope to work properly. Ideally, a minimum of 1/4" per foot of horizontal run.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Swart]

Would it be possible to raise the front end of the drain to get the proper slope? Still would entail expense but maybe not as much as lowering the outlet end.

 

[Terry]

You may need to pull those pipes and install with grade. Pipes that are flat have no incentive to drain for you.
If the main sewer height is an issue, you can consider plumbing to a sewage ejector basin with pump, run the pipes with grade to that, and then pump back up to the main sewer pipe.
I was out a home the other day that had fifty feet of cast iron pipe run flat in the crawl space. It should have had 12.5" of grade added to it. And yes, they were having issues with it.

 

[WJcandee]

There is also a significant possibility that what this plumber told you is complete crap. IF the situation is as he says, then the result is POSSIBLE.

The key to me is the extensive work that he says is necessary. Here is how some contractors work. (1) Figure out what kind of replumbing job you would like to do; (2) Fit the "diagnosis" to the job.

What you MIGHT have is a simple blockage.

I would call AT LEAST one other plumber, preferably one with a stellar reputation for integrity, like Terry and HJ and CacherChick and other of our members have. Angie's List, BBB, other sources can give you an idea of who is competent and honest. Everyone will always have a couple of bad reviews: read them and see if it sounds like a person with knowledge wrote them, or it's just some idiot who never understood what the issue was and is mad because the problem cost money to fix, or vindictive drivel or worse a competitor. Compare that to the positive reviews. Is this a guy who came in after Roto Rooter told the customer that the lawn needed to be dug up and used a proper snake and got the line clean and thoroughly-opened for 1/20th the cost? Is this a guy who did a $100 simple repair that worked properly a year later when the other guys wanted a $1500 solution? And check out the guy who wanted to excavate your basement, too. What are his reviews?

The plumbers I use (Maccarone in Long Island, NY) are comparatively-expensive, no doubt about it. They also come promptly, diagnose the problem correctly, use quality materials, and do the job right the first time. They also never propose to sell me anything that I don't need. Usually quite the opposite. So I pay a lot for what they actually are doing, but I save a lot because the repair is good for eternity and I don't end up paying a "bargain" price for work that was never necessary in the first place.

A recent Maccarone anecdote. Friend has leak above ceiling in important room of very expensive home, ruining big section of plaster ceiling. Thinks it's the toilet on the floor above. Maccarone comes out the afternoon I call them. They look at the ceiling, decide it's a two-man job, and reschedule for next work day. They show up on time, properly-prepare the fragile decorated room in which they are working, then cut a hole in the ceiling. As they are doing so, they notice that when you look at the ceiling in a particular way, you can just make out that the same area has been repainted. Huh. Floor above was only added about 8 years ago and this whole ceiling doubtless repainted then. Strange. Once up in the ceiling, they get off the ladder without touching anything and tell me to climb up and look at what's there. It's not the toilet; it's obviously the drain piping from the tub/shower. And though pretty-new construction, it has very plainly been repaired once. Poorly. Wrong fittings, wrong pipe diameters, etc., but those don't cause a leak, they just indicate questionable workmanship. We run a test with a bucket under the section. Yep. Water comes streaming out. Leaks were from multiple places in the repaired section. One obvious problem was that when you pulled on the section of the pipe leading to the trap, it slid right out of the fitting to which it was connected. Improperly-"glued". Same thing in a couple of other places. Amazing. So they cut the repair work all out and redid it correctly. We ran a couple showers worth of water through; no leaks. Left the ceiling open to test it again later. I would never post photos of the friend's place, but you can tell by looking at the job (at least I can) that the workmanship was night and day.

So the lesson of that experience was this. The whole thing took a few hours and cost a good deal of money. But how much did the previous homeowner save by calling out the guys he did to do the poor repair? Twenty percent? Thirty percent? Meaning two-fifty? Three-fifty? Anything? So now coming out to redo the crappy work costs several times that, and probably similar for repairing and repainting the ceiling so that it looks like it never happened. Perhaps the prior homeowner wasn't even trying to get a reasonably-priced job. Maybe he just called the wrong people -- how would he know?

Remember that the smoothest, nicest, most-seemingly-concerned contractors are often the biggest snakes. Don't mistake kindness for competency or integrity.

You wouldn't have a heart transplant without a second opinion. Don't get a plumbing transplant without one.

 

[Yume]

Thanks for all the replies. I took some pictures of all the piping. We are located just outside Atlanta, Georgia. Two different plumbers have been out to camera our pipes. One was Atlantis Plumbing and the other is a small family owned plumbing company - Morningside Plumbing. Both of them showed me with a level on several areas of the pipes that they are indeed dead level.

I suppose I can go into the longer version of the story and start from the beginning. This all began with a bathroom renovation. Our contractor cut the cast iron pipe under our shower in order to install a new p-trap. He said he always does this, though I understand it wasn't necessary. We have water turn offs for each bathroom, so he turned the water off for only our master bathroom. He left for the day before installing the p-trap (I guess he had to go buy the fittings and was planning to do it the next day). He had already cut the pipe, so the pipe was completely open. He didn't tell us he had cut the pipe or even that he was planning to replace the p-trap. Later that night, I had taken a shower in our guest bathroom and afterward heard a waterfall sound. I went to the basement to find all the grey water from the shower had flooded the basement. Thankfully it did not damage our travertine because the tile contractor took zero responsibility for it. He said he has done this hundreds of times and never had this issue. He said the pitch of our pipes must be the problem or a clog.

The very next day we call Atlantis out to diagnose. They told us there was a clog (seemed like it was around where the pipe exits the house to me but plumber told me it is at the intersection). When I asked what it was, the guy was very vague and condescending. They said it was everything, hair, pipe corrosion, TP, etc. They also looked at the pitch of our pipes after I explained to them what had happened the previous night. They put a level to the pipes and found they were dead level until their intersection point. They recommended we replace everything with PVC. I asked them what about replacing just the problematic portions with new cast iron. He looked at me like I was stupid and asked why I would want to do that. So I declined the offer. I understand if it is just not possible or feasible to do cast iron, but I definitely appreciate a plumber who can consider why it is important to us to do so if at all possible. Our upstairs flooring above our basement is so thin that dust actually falls through the cracks of our hardwoods to the basement. Any liquids spilled on the upstairs flooring also trickles into the basement. I suspect they have sanded and refinished our hardwoods many times and perhaps they are quite thin at this point for something like this to happen. There is no insulation or sound barrier between the basement and the upstairs. PVC is noisy, and of course, we are worried about the additional noise. Second, our pipes are exposed. We have to consider the overall aesthetic of the space and making both the plumbing and living space functional without turning it into an eyesore. PVC is not that pretty, I don't care what color it is spray painted. It will always look like PVC. These were our main two concerns.

So I contacted Morningside Plumbing to come take a look. I needed them to come out anyways to fix the blotched vanity install our tile contractor did

[essentially he didn't do his research on the vanity we were using. The roughin came right out into a shelf. The vanity is an antique sideboard, so cutting or removing the shelf was not an option. Instead of informing us of this (I totally understand if moving a vent stack up is beyond the scope of his normal install and he would need to call in additional help at an additional cost to us), he used flex pipe to create an S-Trap for the sink and said it works fine. Although I told him that it doesn't work for us. Again didn't take any responsibility for this oversight. Don't recommend Enso Tile for those in the Atlanta area. The pipe had to be moved up or we needed to purchase a new vanity. We considered purchasing a new vanity until we found out the tile installer had used silicone to glue our marble sink to the the vanity. Removing it could end up damaging the sideboard as well as the sink. Unfortunately we found this out on the last day after the tile contractor had already installed the tile on our walls. So Morningside had to chisel out the tile he had already cut for the rough in and replace it with a new one. They also had to drill a new hole for the new roughin. They were able to access the vent stack from our closet and move it up to the new position of the roughin. It was a pretty tight space to work in as well]

The owner of Morningside, Paul, was certain that Atlantis was just trying to pull one over one me. BTW, first plumber gave us an estimate to replace our pipes with PVC only up until the crawlspace with no intention to change the remaining or do any excavating. Atlantis never mentioned the HVAC conflicting with the plumbing either. Not sure how he thought this would fix the issue if the pitch is off. Paul assured us he would find the clog or corrosion and we could replace that section of pipe with cast iron. No problem. When he snakes and cameras our pipes, he finds no clogs but water sitting in the pipes. Ultimately he finds the same thing. Our pipes don't have the correct pitch, so water can't exist the house properly. His first recommendation is to reroute the plumbing to our sewage ejector pump. If you notice in the picture there is a spray painted PVC pipe connected to our master bathroom with epoxy. The previous owners had this done when they installed a half bath to the basement. They had it connected to a sump pump. The pump was tiny, and when a contractor came out to do work and used the restroom, well,the pump was not powerful enough to handle the number 2. So it flooded our basement with sewage. My husband and his dad rented a jack hammer and purchased a large pump (a sewage ejector meant for a bathroom, not rain water), and installer in themselves. Paul recommended we send all the pipes there but we would need an even larger one for this purpose. He recommended this as the most cost effective option. Only concern for us is these things rely on electricity. What if power is out, breaker gets tripped, or pump stops working and we don't realize quickly enough? Are we going to end up with sewage in our basement again? So, what is our best option here? After seeing the pictures is there a way anyone can think of to fix this mess without ruining the overall aesthetic and functionality of our basement as a living area?

Last pic is where the two bathrooms intersect. Included a picture of HVAC to show how it may an issue for creating the correct slope for the pipe.

Oh and for the person suggesting moving the drain up, definitely could have considered this as an option before our remodel. If only we had known this just a month earlier.... but now our master bathroom is almost 100% finished, I don't think it is possible without considerable backtracking. Our guest bathroom was remodeled before we purchase the home. The tub in there is cast iron. I will make another post with photos of the remodel including our new Toto toilet! Yah!