10 inch toilet in 12 inch rough in - tank brace suggestions?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by zsuguru, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. zsuguru

    zsuguru New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Missouri
    Installed a new toilet (AS Cadet 3 from HD...and yes I had to take it back twice due to defects) that is a 10 inch rough-in into a 12 inch roughed in space. This was done b/c the wife didn't want a ADS/right height/tall toilet and the only short ones HD had were 10 inch rough-in. Everything seems to work fine but there is a pretty big gap between the tank and the wall, maybe 5 inches or so.

    I'm curious if it would be a smart idea to brace the tank to keep it from leaning back should someone (like the cats) bump it just to keep it from moving?

    Also, in the other bathroom (for a 13 year old kid) would it be wise to do the same there? That toilet is a 12 inch rough-in toilet in a 12 inch roughed in space so the gap is only an inch or two.
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,854
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Not to be harsh about it, but perhaps for around the same money from your local plumbing supply if you shop around you can find a Toto Drake CST744S (1.6gpf) or CST744E (1.28 gpf), both of which would be on a 12" rough-in at the regular height. And of course they are high-quality and perform magnificently. Five inches from the wall is pretty unsightly, and adding bracing isn't going to make it prettier. All toilets are going to have gaps behind the tank of some size, so it really doesn't seem to matter whether it's 2" or 5", the tank shouldn't be rocking or require bracing in either case. Bracing, of course, only keeps the tank from moving in one direction (towards the wall), not the other (away from the wall), so it seems like getting the tank installed nice and firmly is really your best bet.

    I'm a little suprised that you have 2" behind the one that's on the 12" rough-in. Even the Drake, which has one of the bigger gaps, leaves only about an inch behind the tank to the wall on a 12" rough-in.

    Good luck!!
  3. zsuguru

    zsuguru New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Missouri
    Don't worry about being harsh. Wisdom can often be harsh as it comes from learned (painful at times) experience. I appreciate your honesty!

    I get ya - I'm not a fan of HD or L but they're "available." The plumbing supply cos around my house sell AS and some other brands...I forget which but NOT toto. The nearest Toto dealer is 30 miles away! I'll have to ask next time I'm in one of those places why they don't sell Toto. I know most of the plumbing companies around here use Kohlers (idk why, but that's what they say they use).

    I just measured the rough-in (again) and the wall is actually really crooked. 12" inches on the one bolt and then 12.5" on the second. Both toilets share the same wall back2back. Nothing is straight in this house I swear!
  4. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    I would bet you that most, if not all, of the local plumbing stores could order a Toto for you. But, is 30 miles a huge deal? Remember, a toilet is a purchase that you will live with for years to come, so an extra few minutes drive won't seem too important as time passes. FWIW, I made a 300 mile round trip over a mountain pass to get my first Toto, lucked out on the second because Terry Love was coming within 35 miles of my home and I picked it up there. It may not be the wall that is not square, it could be the flange was not set straight. At any rate, you have a 12" rough in.
  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,651
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The most common scenario is that a supplier has a "common" regular height 12" toilet, but NOT a 10" one. NO ONE puts a brace behind the tank for any reason. If it is going to break, it will do so unless the tank is tight to the wall, and it happens so seldom that it is not even a consideration when we install ANY toilet. The mechanics of the tank to bowl connection is such that any force that would crack it would probably damage it even with a brace.
  6. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    If you are bound to stay with the AS toilet, then you will just have to live with the space. If you want a toilet that will properly fit on a 10" rough-in, then you should look at the Toto toilets that use the Unifit adapter. Toto is the only company that makes an adapter to fit a toilet on 10", 12", or 14" rough-in flanges, but they will only work on specific models. Besides fitting the space properly, these are first rate toilets in both appearance and performance. These can be ordered by a plumbing shop or purchased online. Online has some risks in breakage although if the toilet arrives broken and you inspect it before accepting delivery, the shipper will replace it. That's a hassle of course, but I think the shippers are doing a better job now that they did in the past to better pack methods to cut down on this problem. As I stated in an earlier response, a toilet is a purchase that should last for many years so a bit of extra time and effort now will payoff many times over in the next 30 year or more.
  7. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    I used a 10" rough in because measuring to the wall with the old toilet install was less than 12". The dimensions for a 12" didn't leave much room for error so I played safe.
  8. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,854
    Location:
    New York, NY
    That's certainly a safe strategy. What might be helpful to know is that the original Toto Drake can fit on 11" from wall to center of flange, no problem (assuming that the wall is truly vertical; i.e. that you measure to where the back of the tank will or would touch the wall).
  9. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    I had never heard of Toto till I found this forum which was after my purchase.
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,024
    Location:
    New England
    You're not alone, but Toto's worldwide production makes most of the US based toilet companies look like corner stores. They've built up over the years by providing a quality product and word of mouth. Next time you wander through an airport, you'll find more and more of them are switching to Toto fixtures because they work. Actually building them in the USA is also a factor when buy American comes into play in a contract, but there are some other US made toilets, so that's not a slam dunk. Most of the US based companies outsourced their production over the last decade or so to foreigners. A few still make selected models here to satisfy government contracts, but the vast majority of them are made elsewhere.
  11. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,854
    Location:
    New York, NY
    If you haven't seen the attached article from two years ago, Jim, I just saw it and found it very interesting. Main points, made by Toto USA's VP of Operations: (1) Toto's "best advocate is the plumber. The plumber finds that when he puts our toilet into Mrs. Johnson's house, he doesn't have to go back." [exactly what Terry says]; (2) They converted the entirety of Hartsfield (Atlanta) Airport, replacing about 800 toilets and 1000 urinals with Toto products [the article doesn't mention it, but Hartsfield is also a place that they get a chance to show off their fancy commercial electric flush valves as well, because they are all Toto]; (3) They decided to walk the walk about sustainability, crushing all the old toilets and urinals from Atlanta Airport and sending them to LaFarge for use as aggregate for road construction, and they do that with all their rejects as well; previously this all would have gone to a dump; (4) they have made major capital investments to become a major sustainable organization (investments that only pay off long-term): they use 4 million gallons of recycled water per month, and 1 million gallons of greywater, they refine the remaining clay-mud slurry and truck it to a ceramic floor company in Tennessee, they even tell the employees to bring in their recyclables to work and Toto takes care of recycling them. More details in the article, like how they reuse kiln heat in the winter. Heck of a company.

    Here's the link: http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/pur...uld-all-consider-upgrading-our-porcelain/5110
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  12. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    My local plumbing supply house has a showroom also. I never noticed that right on the front window along with the other brands is the word Toto! Never been in the showroom as I head for the parts desk.
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,024
    Location:
    New England
    The sad part is that Toto can make toilets in the USA that can compete anywhere in the world, but most US manufacturers (not all) have outsourced their production out of the country. And, their quality control and design is top notch. Next time you're in a showroom where multiple brands/models are shown, see how many of them try to turn the waste at a right angle right at the outlet to the flange...guess what, that slows things down, and longer, harder ones don't make it through at all. Toto's design has nice curves, and the outlet is smoothly turned to point at the toilet flange so it all keeps going.
  14. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    Toto is the largest manufacturer of toilets in the entire world. As such, they manufacture toilets in several countries including the United States. One thing is consistent regardless of the country of manufacture. They all meet the highest standards of quality. As I understand it, the first thing they look at when selecting a site to set up a factory, is the quality of the clay. The clay must have a certain moisture content so the toilets won't sag in the kiln. Another point about Toto quality is the fact that they do not market factory seconds or blems. I'm sure they have some toilets that do not pass the final inspection, but these never see the light of day. This can not be said about some other brands, who dump these seconds on the discount stores at a very cheap price.
  15. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    Can you actually prove what your saying about dumping the seconds on discount stores?
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,024
    Location:
    New England
    Read through some of the horror stories here on peoples experiences...lopsided bowls, missing glaze, holes, tank covers that were twisted and warped so they wouldn't sit flat...any company with any sort of quality control would never have them leave the factory. More than one person opened more than one box before they found one acceptable on all pieces. No manufacturer can stay solvent making really crappy products, so hopefully rejects are a small percentage of their output. Empirical evidence points to the big box stores accepting anything off the assembly line. The vast majority of them are good, but the (slightly) bad ones make it through because they aren't caught. One reason why the same toilet at a plumbing supply store may cost more, another is their volume; a plumber can't take the time to replace a defective toilet - a big box store purchaser may not recognize a defect, or think they're all like that, and the store and buyer become the QA group. Any less than perfect ones the homeowner doesn't bring back is more profit for all rather than having the factory destroy it.
  17. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    Well, do customers who purchased a toilet with defects from a plumber come here to complain? I think not. DIY'rs purchase from big box stores as it's cheaper. It's poor quality for sure. You'd have to compare the same brand/model sold by a plumber to a big box store to really prove your point.
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,024
    Location:
    New England
    SOme of the plumbers here refuse to install a toilet bought from a big box store because of the problems they've had. It's typical that they do not offer more than an installation warranty, and if the toilet is defective, you pay them, rather than them covering it.

    Plumbers won't put up with defective products, and even though a big box store might be cheaper than their distributor, they don't buy them there. That must tell you something, too.
  19. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    So if I go to my local plumbing supply's walk-in showroom I should see a pristine lineup of American Standard products or at least the cream of the crop? You guys normally are anti-AS.
  20. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,024
    Location:
    New England
    Plumbers don't want to install things that give them problems. They do install AS products, but they don't (generally) buy them from a big box store because of experience. Any manufacturer has an occasional defect that gets through, but if you ask Terry his defect rate, Toto has the lowest figure of all of the brands he sells. What you might find on the plumbing supply showroom is a defect that they didn't want to trash or send back. Generally, those are non-functional (i.e., they're not actually plumbed to work), so if it isn't obvious, why use one at 100%, when you have one that isn't.
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