1 cu.ft twins or 2.0 cu.ft single

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by IDIOT#3, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. IDIOT#3

    IDIOT#3 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    central illinois
    i've asked questions at the gardenweb forum about my water conditioning needs and have run out of my allotment of free advice.

    the most recent analysis of my well water reveals 47 gpg hardness. 1.4 ppm iron. .26 ppm manganese. pH 7.51. TDS 1200 ppm or greater. another lab put the TDS at 1600 ppm.

    the iron is ferrous. no iron bacteria present. i intend to put a whole house 4" x 10" dual 75/25 micron filter before the softener. thought about an iron filter, but figured it is less expensive to re-bed any size softener i'd end up with, one or twice before i croak.

    i can get a Hellenbrand twin 1.0 cu.ft. or 2.0 cu.ft. single. even though these are proprietary, i'd prefer to stick with a Clack valving system.

    all of the online calculators, either suggest 64K, 80K and one suggests a 3.5 cu. ft. softener.

    there are two users, 3 out of 7 days 180 gallons of water is used and that is a max, probably way less. the remaining four days i'd figure 480 gallons.

    so, compensated hardness is say...55 gpg x 94 gallons per day = 5170 grains per day. the seller goes with 55 gpg x 150 gallons per day = 8250 grains per day.

    am i being undersized, for hardness and high TDS along with less than standard water usage?

    i have the capability to increase or decrease the amount of flow by changing the psi on a constant pressure water system. currently at 50 psi, drawing 12 gpm at an outside bib. 1 tub/shower, washer, kitchen sink and bath sink is all i have.

    my head is about to explode. please....any verification or homework you can point me to would be greatly appreciated.

    thanks, and good day.
  2. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    720
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida
    I would recommend a single tank system vs a twin. You will have more filtration because of of having 2 CF in 1 tank. I sent you a PM.
  3. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Technically speaking, a twin is the right choice, but you are on the outer limits of a single tank system. Hellenbrand has a great proprietary valve from Clack and they typically offer great support. They also do not go cheap in any of their parts when they assemble their equipment. I would go with the larger 2 cu. ft. system considering you will still maintain decent efficiency. If you had another person in the house, a twin would be highly recommended.
  4. IDIOT#3

    IDIOT#3 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    central illinois
    ok. thank you both...mialynette2003 and dittohead.

    the seller did say pretty much the same as you dittohead. speaking about the twin system vs. single, and how i really could not go wrong with either system, and the only reason he gave for nudging towards the twin was because of the irregular water usage and the level of manganese, as the manganese is very hard on resin. the short of it was, while the 1 cu.ft. has less filtering capabilities, it also allows for quicker regenerations to remove build up of manganese in particular, and iron if oxidization occurs. while doubling the odds damage with a larger amount of resin in a single tank could become a concern. then he said, if using rust-out salt or resin cleaner periodically, it could be reasonably addressed. that's what i picked up from his explanation. and then there is the high TDS. he also added if money was not a deciding factor, or a budget breaker he'd go with the twin given my conditions.

    he left it up to me. now it is all about the money, as the technical details have been addressed with solutions.

    mialynette2003, we've had our back and forth...i will let you know one way or the other...i must be fair and ask the seller about the cost of his 2.0 cu.ft. units. they offer longer warranties.

    thanks again.
  5. mialynette2003

    mialynette2003 Member

    Messages:
    720
    Location:
    Ocala, Florida

    Do you want me to quote you a twin?
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    FYI, warranties are very open to interpretation. I write "Lifetime" warranties for companies, and they are worthless. Most smaller companies offer true manufacturers warranties only, which is typically much better than "extended" warranties. Regardless, good quality equipment can be easily maintained for very little cost. Resin replacement is simple and cheap, valve internals are also very inexpensive. Proprietary units have no competition so they have no reason to honor their warranty. Most smaller companies use non proprietary equipment so they are bound to good prices due to competition.

    Good luck on your purchase!
  7. IDIOT#3

    IDIOT#3 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    central illinois
    hello mialynette2003,

    sorry for the delay. no, i will stay with a single. after figuring out that the twin would use 720# of salt yearly vs. 288# with a single while using the more costly salt to compensate for for the decision to forego an iron filter ahead of it. the figures i used were dosing at 6# 1 cu.ft. @ 20K (3.5 days regen x 2), vs. 6# 2 cu.ft. (7 days regen) @ 40K with 5657 GPD, using 660 gallons /week. this is the conservative end of it all.

    i have not received a detailed answer for the Hellenbrand yet,...just a ballpark $900 figure.

    i am not in a hurry anymore. just wanna spend one time, and get it right.

    thank you
  8. IDIOT#3

    IDIOT#3 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    central illinois
    hello dittohead,

    yes, the warranty just looks better. but the real problem is retailers vs. wholesalers, and the fall-out after the fact...if there is any, and that...is a risk worth paying for. i think. but i have been rightly accused of over-thinking stuff.

    a risk worth hedging against.****
  9. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    USA
    I would agree with the twin choice. These give you endless treated water and most twins use softened water to regenerate, which greatly lengthens the service life. The prefilter can provide a very cheap and affective insurance to extending higher water quality. These must be set up and maintained properly. Softeners are not designed to be 'filters' so avoid using one for that purpose.
  10. IDIOT#3

    IDIOT#3 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    central illinois
    hello water solutions,

    i did some reading, and apparently half of the reserve set aside for a single tank normally becomes wasted capacity because a regen kicks in before it is actually exhausted. if this is true more water and regenerant is spent without getting any softened water from it.

    jeezzz, i need to re-think the twin from that point of view, and it looks like a third person will be added to the family.

    filter or ion exchange. personally, i think the only difference betwixt the two are in the characteristics you want from a process.
  11. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,789
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The amount the reserve that is used/wasted depends on many factors. That is why we try to push for no less than every 5 days between regenerations. Up to a month is fine as long as you are not using the system for iron removal. Past 7-8 days between regenerations, the efficiency gains get to be so minimal that it is not critical. Twin alternating are rarely used if 24/7 soft water is not critical and we can get past 4 days between regenerations.

    Ion exchange for iron removal is very effective, but also very inefficient. Each ppm of iron calculates out to 85 ppm of hardness. This is not an efficient means of iron removal. It is a cheap way to do it, but alternative modern methods are far more efficient. The actual calculations is actually far worse when we take into consideration that ultra low salting and long regeneration intervals should not be done if the softener is being used for iron removal.

    The twin tank system is the most efficient design and is the standard for most commercial applications. Residential applications are less common since we can usually get to that 5+ dya interval efficiency point.

    Hope this helps.
  12. IDIOT#3

    IDIOT#3 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    central illinois
    at 47 grains of hardness, reaching 5 days is not possible, even with minimal water consumption. add to that almost 2 ppm iron, and .26 ppm manganese.

    honestly, 24/7 softwater is not a concern...i am only interested in minimizing how much hardwater is going to leak through either system and correctly sizing to get the best softwater that can be had...given the makeup of the well water without going nuts on salt usage or not using capacity when it is available.
  13. chevy427

    chevy427 Banned

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    USA
    The 7/24 paradigm of twin-tank softeners is never the focal point of that technology and usually the meme of those selling single-tank systems as their primary product; it is just a very positive by-product. So saying that homeowners "never need run their water for 24 hours" and therefore a twin is never needed is a strawman.

    Twin-tank systems do eliminate the guess work especially if the water use varies (sometimes greatly) from a day to day basis, which is ALWAYS a fact. You'll never need to adjust for guests who come and go and allow you to utilize water on those unusually heavy-use days without any worries. Water use and salt consumption remain consistent and predicable. You'll never need to wonder how close you are to exhausting the capacity and whether you should wait till tomorrow to do laundry or "Honey, did you rest the softener since your kids are coming--you remember what happened last time?"

    The fact that the complete regeneration uses treated water is another advantage to keeps resins cleaner, longer. I take out softeners and rebed them as a weekly service and can see great differences in the quality (and quantity) of resin from a 25-year old twin and a 10-year old single on very similar waters.

    There are some excellent single-tank softeners that will provide better than adequate service if set up and maintained properly, but to discount twins BECAUSE you don't use water 24 hours a day is typically a anti-sales tactic. And when the softener needs to clean itself, just go ahead and keep using the water because it doesn't need to wait till 2AM and you won't run out of treated water even IF you don't use it for 24 hours like no one ever does, right?


    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2013

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