1-1/4" PEX, is a DIY install possible?

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by hoffmand, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    Looks GREAT. I know you will enjoy clean water. Congrads.
  2. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    first rate job, looks great. Love the Stainless tank, you can see your face in it :)
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I think you'd find that the SS is a wrap around SS jacket, not a SS tank.
  4. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Thanks for pointing that out to everyone. I'm sure it makes a huge difference. Could you tell us the grade and thickness of the stainless while you are at it? Perhaps the country and factory it was manufactured in. LOL
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You're welcome and yes you're right, a huge difference but no I can't tell you where the SS wraps are made. But one of the largest and oldest SS softener/filter tank manufacturers is in Mechanicsburg PA. The owner's name is John, his son's name is Rob and if you want contact info, email me your email address.

    p.s. SS tanks don't have the black plastic cap on them.
  6. hoffmand

    hoffmand New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Thanks guys. Even though it's just an insulating jacket, the SS does look nice.

    I'm paronaoid about potential leaks so I'll force a regen tonight after everyone goes to sleep. Is there any reason to do the first regeneration on a higher salt setting? Or is it fine to leave it on the 3.3lbs/cuft that I'm going to keep it on?
  7. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    New resin comes pre-charged. No need to increase the salt for the first regen.
  8. hoffmand

    hoffmand New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Thanks

    BTW, I have even more respect for you guys who have done this with older plumbing or no loops. It took an hour or two to get everything situated and my install is about as simple as it gets.

    Dave
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2010
  9. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    Reaally? I had no idea:rolleyes:
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Originally Posted by Gary Slusser [​IMG] You're welcome and yes you're right, a huge difference but no I can't tell you where the SS wraps are made. But one of the largest and oldest SS softener/filter tank manufacturers is in Mechanicsburg PA. The owner's name is John, his son's name is Rob and if you want contact info, email me your email address.

    For real? I had no idea [​IMG]

    p.s. SS tanks don't have the black plastic cap on them.


    I know.

    But I see you are improving in your attempt to learn how to quote and I suspect that with more practice you'll know how shortly.
  11. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state
    You are the champ baby ;)

    I like the way I quote. I was not aware that there was a prescribed "method" for replying line to line but hey, if it makes you happy I will be glad to not oblige.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    There ya go!, ya got it now.
  13. nhmaster3015

    nhmaster3015 Master Plumber

    Messages:
    836
    Location:
    The granite state

    Oh Goody, I''m so glad. My day is complete.
  14. hoffmand

    hoffmand New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I liked it better when we were talking about water softeners....
  15. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,315
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Gary; "K" is controlled by the salt per regeneration? I was always taught that is was controlled by the amount of resin in the tank and THAT controlled the amount of salt needed per regeneration. I guess that means all those electronic meters that are programmed according to the water hardness so the softener knows when to regenerate, should be reprogrammed according to the amount of salt being used.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    All control valves come from the factory with default settings. The dealer/installer is supposed to input the hardness in gpg, the K of capacity and the salt dose lbs or volume of refill water either in the control valve or the or volume of refill water in the salt tank with a float.

    Example, in this thread an Autotrol control valve (probably a 255) with an electronic metered Logix timer has been selected for the 3.0 cuft (90K usable) softener. It has only 3 salt dose/setting choices, low, medium and high salt efficiency, and one has to be chosen or the default choice/lbs (I don't know what that is) will be used. I. E. the Clack WS-1 defaults are 24K, 9.5 lbs and 20 gpg and can be used on tanks from 6" to 21" diameter (a 7.5 cuft softener). Those settings are not close to appropriate mathematically for any volume or type of resin.

    Then the computer will allow water to flow into the salt tank for X minutes at the rate of .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs to dissolve roughly 3 lbs of salt per gallon of refill water. And depending on the volume of resin in cuft, you get the K of capacity. It is all done with simple math.

    That makes the K of capacity adjustable. Let's assume we have a 1.0 cuft ("32K") softener. The first time you run hard water through it you lose 2K because you won't be able to regenerate it to more than 30K (per cuft of resin) and to do that you need to program/set the salt dose at 15 lbs (per cuft).

    Now some people mistakenly believe you should use all the capacity before regeneration, but that is going to get very poor salt efficiency of 2000 grains/lb (30000/15= 2000). And MANY days between regenerations and that can foul resin requiring resin replacement. If you set the salt dose at say 6 lbs (per cuft), you get 20K and 3333 grains/lb. Nine lbs (per cuft) gets 2666 grs/lb, and any control valve or a float in the salt tank can be set less than 6 lbs. (per cuft). And, using the max K is like letting your vehicle run out of fuel before filling the tank or buying less than would be needed to fill it before it ran out.

    For more depth on all that, you can Click on the link in my signature about sizing but yes, anyone using the 'factory' default settings of a control valve or a float in a salt tank as not done right by their customer and should reprogram the salt lbs and K of capacity.
  17. Skip Wolverton

    Skip Wolverton In the Trades

    Messages:
    167
    Location:
    Ocala, Fl
    Gary,
    Using your 20k/6lbs salt math, don't you have to add in the reserve? I was taught you factor in a 20% reserve. So you are using 16k and not 20k. This is why I use 20K/8lbs salt.
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I've never used a percentage, I was taught to do the actual math, and for a time clock subtract a day's worth of capacity. I.E. say 15 gpg and a family of 4 at 60/gals/day/person = 3600 times say a 4 day service run would be 5 times 3600 = 18K and in a 1.0 cuft you'd set the salt dose at 5.5 lbs then set the regen days at 4, 8 and 12. That way you regen 18K and it uses 4 * 3600 = 14,400+/-. Your way uses 2.5 lbs more for the same K.

    A reserve for a metered control valve, unless it has variable reserve like the Clack WS-1, you subtract a day's worth of gallons from the total gallons based on the K of capacity. I.E. using the above example, 18K/15gpg=1200 gals - 3600/15= 240 so 1200-240= 960 gallons and with your mechanical meter 5600, it can't accept but whole numbers and the 25 gals increments so you have to set it at 950 gallons. And it would regen on average every 950/240= 3.9 or call it 4 days.

    Doing it your way you use 2.5 lbs more every 4 days times 365/4 = 91 regens times 2.5lbs = 227.5 lbs more salt/yr times 10 yrs = 2275lbs which is 1.2 tons more salt when you don't have to.

    And here there is a 3.0 cuft at did he say 3 lbs?
  19. hoffmand

    hoffmand New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    According to the manual, the Autotrol 768 has 3 salt does settings, 3lbs/cuf, 9lbs/cuft, 15lbs/cuft. They call the 3lbs/cuft the "high efficiency mode". With 3 cuft of resin that gives you capacities of 44k, 75k, and 90k respectively. When I enter in 12gpg hardness it calculates how many gallons available before regen (~3,600gals). Since we are currently using <200gals per day, I set the calendar override at 14days, rather than waiting up to 18 days for the meter to say a regen is necessary.
  20. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Might you have the unit set so that either the gallons or the day over ride takes place?
    If you have a house full of people for awhile the gallons most likely will send it into a cycle, while with just the normal the 14 days..
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