New house, old pump CSV setup

[sherrod624]

I've built my house on a lot that had an existing well and pump. Best I can tell, I think it is a 1hp gould 25gpm sub pump. The pump was installed with irrigation in mind for a nursery. Best I understand the pump is around 25 years old. According to my reading I require 100+ gallons of pressure tank for this size pump to achieve proper cycling. I'd rather not fill my well house with that much tank just to see it become unnecessary if I ever have to replace the pump and go with something smaller. So I think that a CSV would be a good solution for my situation. However, I understand the logic of using the 4.5 gallon tank with the csv but I just hate the idea of it cycling every time I flush the toilet. Could I still use a 20gal tank or so and the csv still be effective? What setup do you guys recommend with the pump that I think I have.?

thanks for the help.

 

[Valveman]

It doesn't hurt for your pump to cycle for every toilet flush, even if you flush 50 times a day. What is important is the pump doesn't cycle WHILE you are using water for longer terms like showers and sprinklers, which could cycle the pump hundreds of times. And even if you did flush 50 times per day, most of those flushes will be in conjunction with hand washing, showers, washing machine, etc. If the washing machine or shower is already running when you flush or soon thereafter, there is no extra cycle for the pump. And if you stand there and flush the toilet 50 times in a row, there is only 1 pump cycle for those 50 flushes. I know it is hard to visualize how a CSV works when we have been forced to use large tanks for so many years. But the Cycle Stop Valve is in control, not the tank.

Sure you can use a CSV with a 20 gallon size tank. But a 20 gallon size tank only holds 5 gallons of water, so the pump will still cycle for every third flush. There is not enough difference in a 20 gallon tank that holds 5 gallons of water and a 4.5 gallon tank that holds 1.2 gallons of water to warrant the extra wasted space and dollars. But a larger tank won't hurt a thing if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. We even started offering a 10 gallon tank for those who just can't wrap their head around the fact that the 4.5 gallon tank is all that is needed.

 

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[sherrod624]

To begin with i think the csv is an outstanding idea and i plan on using it with my pump/well situation. I also totally understand the logic behind the 4.5 gallon tank and the fact that the csv on a whole cuts out more cycles than the small tank creates. My "head is wrapped around it". I guess my question is, other than space and money, why not use a slightly larger tank to further complement the value of the csv? What is the drawback? Just the fact that it will take a little longer to reach constant pressure(40/60) when it pumps back up from 40 to 50?

Also, what kind of pressure can I expect to see on the pump side of the valve? Should I make any extra consideractions since my pump is already fairly old?

 

[Valveman]

With a 20 gallon size tank (5 gallon draw) you won't have to wait long to see constant pressure. And that is the way we recommended using Cycle Stop Valves for about 10-15 years. But during that time there were a lot of pump installers experimenting with using a CSV and a 2.2 gallon size tank. Over the course of time they proved to me that there was no benefit to the larger tank. However, I am still hard headed and would not settle for the 2.2 gallon size tank and opted for the 4.5 just to be on the safe side.

Even though the CSV will work with any size tank, any larger than a 20 gallon size tank and you will see low pressure for longer periods of time, and will be waiting too long to see the constant pressure. But if you have the room and the extra money to burn the 20 gallon tank is fine with a CSV.

 

[sherrod624]

So what kind of pressure could I expect to see on the pump side while the valve has the flow throttled back. And should I have any concerns about this and a 30 year old pump and piping?

It looks like as soon as they got out of the well cap it is reduced from 1-1/4" to 1". I don't think this is right. I think I should be running 1-1/4 straight to the valve. Am I right in thinking this needs fixing?

 

[Valveman]

Your biggest concern is the pump has already had 30 years of cycling abuse. It maybe on it's last leg no matter what you do. But adding the CSV now will at least stop the abuse from additional cycling. However, the back pressure from the CSV will be whatever your particular pump can build. A 1/2 HP usually is about 100 PSI, a 3/4 HP is about 130 PSI, and a 1 HP could build as much as 160 PSI. Any pipe you have should be capable of handling more than 160 PSI, if not it isn't good pipe to start with.

Your pump is not seeing the 100-160 PSI back pressure now. And when you first turn it on after adding a CSV, the back pressure will test your motor thrust bearing for you the same way we test pumps in the test pit. If the added backpressure from the CSV makes the amps go up, the thrust bearing in your motor isn't any good, and it was working on borrowed time anyway.

If the back pressure from the CSV makes the amps go down, your thrust bearing is still good and you could have several years of life left in the pump. The backpressure from the CSV will not hurt the pump in anyway, but it will test the pump for you and let you know if it is still good.