Inconsistent Metering

[Vans]

Installed last December, my unit doesn't meter all water usage, it appears that just bathtub on my main floor, took shower this morning and check gallons before and after and no change, but go to kitchen sink and run water it counts down.
I've checked the connection to meter and checked impeller for obstruction.
I wonder if I'm plumbed wrong, I have flexible line hooked directly to bypass, line feeds from above and sweeps to valve.
Thanks

 

[Bannerman]

Brand and model of softener control valve?

Do you use a low flow shower head or otherwise reduce the water flow during showering?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Vans]

Fleck 5600 SXT, and yes it's a low flow, also have a 1.6 Toto sitting next to shower and I think that doesn't meter either, but the vanity does meter, as I've checked numerous times. The shower does meter at times, I turn on and watch valve and it will work, a gallon or two then quits.
Washer and kitchen meters fine.

 

[ditttohead]

Do you have the plastic bypass or the stainless bypass?

 

[Reach4]

I am sure that you checked that the bypass is fully in service position.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/img_fleck5600sxt_flow-png.31592/ illustrates the two kind of meters. You probably want to indicate which you have. From what I read, typically a turbine can go to lower flows without disregarding the flow ( better "turndown") than a paddlewheel, but I don't know if that is the case with the Fleck meters.

The manual shows
19121-01 .........Meter Cable Assy, Turbine/SXT
19121-01 .........Meter Cable Assy, SXT, Paddle (not included in P/N 60086)
Hmmm... same meter cable for either.

The cable has the has the sensor on the end. I don't know how to tell if the flow sensitivity problem is the cable or the meter assembly.

 

[Vans]

I have plastic bypass on, had a stainless valve on it and had all sorts of problems, metering was worse, it wouldn't even go through regeneration properly, vendor sent new valve and after install had same issue, I decided to pull stainless valve and install plastic which helped, plugged in old valve on kitchen counter and it went through regeneration fine.

I think it's a flow issue?
3/4 copper to flex line, to valve

 

[Vans]

My first go around with this unit was a missing paddle wheel in meter, I should have bought local as we have a local brand, Peerless, I've installed a few of them and never had issue
But they are a couple hundred more

 

[ditttohead]

Post a picture of your unit. If you have a paddle then you need to make sure the system is programmed properly.

The last setting in master programming would be FM p0.7. This will set the K factor to 20 pulses per gallon. If you set it to t0.7 then the K factor will be 133 pulses per gallon. This would obviously cause major problems...

Here a picture of what the paddle meter looks like. The electronic one may be slightly different but Fleck is doing some minor changes to the meters right now so its hard to say which exact meter you would get.

This is the turbine, it would be programmed as T0.7

Lastly, shut off the inlet bypass valve and see what does/does not have water. This will tell you exactly what the system feeds.

 

[Vans]

Pic of meter

 

[Vans]

Pretty sure I'm set at po.7, that's something I checked when I started trying to figure this out
I'll double check just in case

 

[ditttohead]

The paddle wheel meter is basically bulletproof. If you close the inlet side of the bypass, you will know exactly what the unit feeds. Check to make sure it is feeding everything in the house that you want it to.

 

[Oldyellr]

Who installed the water softener? Have you checked the plumbing? Somebody could have got it backwards, sending the soft water to the kitchen cold water tap, where you usually should have hard water. When the gas company plumbing contractor put in my water heater, they had the hard water going into the water heater and I had to re-plum it.

 

[Vans]

I installed, I don't think it's that technical of a job, I'm a licensed carpenter and have done my share of plumbing. I use a Hach 5b Hardness test kit, (best 20.00 I've spent in a while), to test water and yes I have the house softener plumbed how I want

Hardness was starting to climb so last night I hit manual regen as unit shows I've only used 900 gallons in three weeks, 3 people etc.
Regen was not going as should as an hour later it was just starting the backwash which is a 60 minute cycle, etc etc.

I'm giving this one last try before trashing, I want to re plumb my supply to unit
I now have two flexible lines, they feed/discharge from above and sweep into bypass valve, somehow I think this is causing some type of turbulence??
I want to come off bypass at least 6" before 90 going up

I have spoke with vendor numerous times, although they have been helpful they aren't able to diagnose my problem either

so far
double-triple checked program
replaced meter
replace the whole valve assembly
discarded stainless by pass and put the plastic bypass that came with unit back on

 

[Reach4]

Did you try this?:

If you close the inlet side of the bypass, you will know exactly what the unit feeds. Check to make sure it is feeding everything in the house that you want it to.

Check that with the inlet side of the bypass closed, but the outlet side in service position, none of the sinks, showers, or toilets gets water.

 

[Bannerman]

Check to ensure the meter is installed on the outlet from the softener. This will be the left connection when facing the softener from the front. Might sound straightforward but numerous softeners have been mistakenly connected backwards resulting in various types of issues.

If connected correctly, recommend temporarily replacing the low flow shower head with a standard head to establish if the meter will consistently detect flow. The softener meter may not be detecting an extremely low flow rate which maybe occurring if you're also throttling back the shower control valve.

The toilet fill rate may also be below the threshold which the softener can detect.

had a stainless valve on it and had all sorts of problems, metering was worse, it wouldn't even go through regeneration properly,

Care to elaborate?

If your water source is a private well, what are your pump pressure settings?

 

[Bannerman]

Regen was not going as should as an hour later it was just starting the backwash which is a 60 minute cycle, etc etc.

Backwash is typically 10 minutes duration whereas 'BD' is usually 60 minutes. The entire regeneration cycle will usually take about 90 minutes.
If the Backwash was only starting 1 hour after regeneration was initiated, is your unit programmed to add water to the brine tank first?

 

[ditttohead]

The stainless bypass would have nothing to do with the problem.
The Flex lines would have nothing to do with the problem.
Their is a "flow straightener" that should be installed ahead of the meter inside the outlet of the valve body.

Since you have replaced the meter/valve, etc. There is obviously some other problem.

 

[Vans]

First of all -thanks guys for the help/advice

ditttohead said: ↑
If you close the inlet side of the bypass, you will know exactly what the unit feeds. Check to make sure it is feeding everything in the house that you want it to.

Done, I have dedicated untreated line to ice maker/kitchen sink-cold and sillcock

had a stainless valve on it and had all sorts of problems, metering was worse, it wouldn't even go through regeneration properly,
Care to elaborate?

I have been in contact with vendor, he sent new valve assembly, I installed and noticed no difference in performance. Both valves would not go through the regeneration steps correctly, steps would not advance to next, I messed up and forgot to manually advance steps and woke up one morning to a softener that spent the whole night regenerating.
Out of curiosity I plugged in old valve which was in box to outlet and hit regen, it went through all steps exactly as programmed
??
Thinking the only thing that it could be was water flow I then replaced stainless bypass with the plastic one that came with unit, started a regeneration cycle and it worked, only the first step, backwash, hung up and had to manually advance to brine draw, the rest of the cycles went fine, and I had soft water again- Hach test.

I have city water, not sure of pressure but it's decent

I will check meter to ensure it's on the right way, that's something that I could have missed, although I don't understand what that would have to do with regen cycle issues
I'll try a shower head thats not a low flow

What is a flow straightener?, I thought about a 6' nipple out of bypass to first 90??


I'm at work and not exactly sure of order of cycles,
I think they are
Backwash-10 minutes
Brine Draw-60
Backwash -10
Rapid Rinse-10
Brine Fill- can't remember, vendor had me lower minutes as I didn't like all the water sitting above salt

hopefully I answered all questions

 

[ditttohead]

Check the power, is it plugged into a an outlet that is switched?

 

[Vans]

, the dam thing needs constant source of power, who would have thought of that

I get the dumb ass award, at first I was offended by "check for switched outlet", guess I never knew top half of outlet was switched

Thanks for helping

I need to give a big SHOUT OUT! to Bryan at 602abc WATER for putting up with me
he has bent over backwards trying to help me


602abcWATER 602-222-9283 www.602abcwater.com