Can I wire in an oven to this sub panel?

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Mihomeowner

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I've got a 200 amp main panel and this 100 amp sub panel. I've done a lot of electrical work on my house, but mostly ceiling fans/lights/new outlets, etc.

I'm looking to add an electric oven. Actually the oven we are looking at is dual fuel, gas top and electric oven. We have a propane supply to where the oven is going, but only a 110v receptacle.

For the specs on the oven, it says "120/240 Volt 60Hz. 40 Amp"

So I am guessing I will need to run a new 40 amp line. The question is, can I do it from a sub panel in the basement? There is more room on it and it would be a more convenient installation.

Attached is a picture of the sub-panel. The 40 amp breaker on the top right is for an A/C unit. The 30 amp below it is not label, and I'm not sure what its purpose is but it's been off since we have owned the house. The last 30 amp on the right is for the pump on a pool. On the left is just outlets and lights that we hardly use.

Where do I start to see if I can put another 40 amp line in this box? I'll probably call an electrician for it, but wanted to get a sense of what I'm in for before talking to him.

Thanks
 

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Stuff

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You are supposed to do a load calculation to figure this out but guess is that you would have no problem as 100 amp provides a lot. Is the breaker in the main that feeds this panel 100 amp?
 

WorthFlorida

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Is this really a sub-panel off your 200 amp panel? There is a 100 amp breaker for this panel, usually there would be a breaker in the main panel to protect the wire between the main and sub. If there is a breaker in the main that feeds this panel, what amperage is it? What size wire is it? Normally you do not put two breakers in series.
 

Mihomeowner

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Thanks for your replies. Yes the breaker in the main panel is 100 amp. I'm not sure about the size of wire, I tried to take a picture of it but couldn't read the description... or wasn't familiar with the terms. Didn't see a gauge reading anywhere but I could only see part of the wire (see picture). Pretty sure it's aluminum, and it's a hefty wire.

Back to the oven question. On my sub panel there are 3 two pole breakers. From top to bottom (see picture)... one 40 amp for a pool pump, one 30 amp that wasn't labelled, and a 30 amp for A/C. The unlabeled one has always been off and had some tape over it, but I could never figure out what it said.

Today I dug around and found out where this leads. It ends in a plug (see pictures) that was tucked in to the drop ceiling. Thought that was pretty odd. Would this be for a generator? I don't have experience wiring in generators to a house panel but I didn't think you could use a normal circuit breaker. Do you think that is what the previous home owners were thinking here? I might make that circuit for an oven but am curious now as I do have a portable generator.

Thanks for help.
 

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WorthFlorida

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Here is what the unlabeled 30 amp breaker if for and the second 100 breaker at this sub panel. You can always tell when it was done by a non electrician. That 220 volt plug is for a generator connection. This is the poor mans (dumb) transfer switch when needing to run a generator during power outage. You switch off the main breaker and then plug the long orange cable into a generator and you are now powering this sub panel. Please remove it and never use it. It's extremely dangerous for everyone including a man working on a power pole trying to restore power. It violates about everything in the NEC book.

Buy a real transfer switch (http://www.houzz.com/photos/53554454/30-Amp-Transfer-Switch-Kit-industrial-electrical-supplies) and get it installed correctly. You may think that since I know how to use it will be OK, but then someday you're not home and a teenager will power up the generator and plug it in. Anyone can be seriously hurt.

I'm confused as to the label of the stove/oven your considering. What is the brand and model number?
 

Mihomeowner

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Here is what the unlabeled 30 amp breaker if for and the second 100 breaker at this sub panel. You can always tell when it was done by a non electrician. That 220 volt plug is for a generator connection. This is the poor mans (dumb) transfer switch when needing to run a generator during power outage. You switch off the main breaker and then plug the long orange cable into a generator and you are now powering this sub panel. Please remove it and never use it. It's extremely dangerous for everyone including a man working on a power pole trying to restore power. It violates about everything in the NEC book.

and get it installed correctly. You may think that since I know how to use it will be OK, but then someday you're not home and a teenager will power up the generator and plug it in. Anyone can be seriously hurt.

I'm confused as to the label of the stove/oven your considering. What is the brand and model number?

Thanks for your reply. I've removed the generator cable. The oven is this:
http://veronaappliances.com/ranges/36-inch-dual-fuel-double-oven
Toward the bottom under "manuals and guides" there is an install guide. I think I am looking at a 40 amp breaker with 8/3? When I wire it up, can I use the neutral bar on the right side? See picture.

Thanks again.
 

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Stuff

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Interesting how the installation manual says 30 amp cord but spec sheet says 40. Most likely 40 but go with what it says on the range itself.

Yes, 8/3 NM copper cable is good for 40 amps and you are allowed to feed a 50 amp receptacle/cord. Make sure to go with the 4 prong version. Yes, you can use the neutral on right for the white wire. You are correct that bare/ground needs to go on the separate bar on the left. Pic is blurry and looks like there is a white on it that shouldn't be there. Someone landed a ground (generator?) on the right bar that is wrong and should be moved. At least it looks like they removed the bonding screw from the panel.

With that wiring there is more evidence that whoever set up the generator feed really did not know what they were doing. Making it a suicide cord was only one of the issues.
 
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WorthFlorida

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That is one serious residential range, 275 lbs, it's beautiful.

This is definitely a 220 volt (240v) appliance, not 120v but since it is made in Italy there is definitely some confusion on the labeling. Since a power cord for the range is labeled as 125/250 50 amp someone interpreted wrong. It really means 125 max per leg and 250 volts max between the two legs (L1-L2). Most of the world except USA, Canada and Japan all have 220v single phase. That is a simple lamp is 220 volt on the hot side and neutral on the other.



rangeplug.jpg
 

Mihomeowner

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Interesting how the installation manual says 30 amp cord but spec sheet says 40. Most likely 40 but go with what it says on the range itself.

Yes, 8/3 NM copper cable is good for 40 amps and you are allowed to feed a 50 amp receptacle/cord. Make sure to go with the 4 prong version. Yes, you can use the neutral on right for the white wire. You are correct that bare/ground needs to go on the separate bar on the left. Pic is blurry and looks like there is a white on it that shouldn't be there. Someone landed a ground (generator?) on the right bar that is wrong and should be moved. At least it looks like they removed the bonding screw from the panel.

With that wiring there is more evidence that whoever set up the generator feed really did not know what they were doing. Making it a suicide cord was only one of the issues.

Thanks for helping clear that up. I'll get some better pictures in the next couple of days. You are correct the ground on the right bar was part of the generator hookup. I removed all that. The bonding screw, does that tie together the neutral and ground bars? In a subpanel it should be removed, is that correct?

Like I said I'll get some better pictures in a day or two. Thanks again for your help, really appreciate it.
 

Mihomeowner

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That is one serious residential range, 275 lbs, it's beautiful.

This is definitely a 220 volt (240v) appliance, not 120v but since it is made in Italy there is definitely some confusion on the labeling. Since a power cord for the range is labeled as 125/250 50 amp someone interpreted wrong. It really means 125 max per leg and 250 volts max between the two legs (L1-L2). Most of the world except USA, Canada and Japan all have 220v single phase. That is a simple lamp is 220 volt on the hot side and neutral on the other.

Thanks for your continued help. Yeah some of the specs had me confused as well. But I should be good with the standard 4 wire cord, right? This is the one I was going to get:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-4-ft-4-Prong-40-Amp-Range-Cord-WX09X10035DS/203438714

Thanks for generously providing your time to help.
 

Jadnashua

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A subpanel should not have the neutral-ground bars bonded together. That is required on the main panel only.
 

Mihomeowner

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Interesting how the installation manual says 30 amp cord but spec sheet says 40. Most likely 40 but go with what it says on the range itself.

Yes, 8/3 NM copper cable is good for 40 amps and you are allowed to feed a 50 amp receptacle/cord. Make sure to go with the 4 prong version. Yes, you can use the neutral on right for the white wire. You are correct that bare/ground needs to go on the separate bar on the left. Pic is blurry and looks like there is a white on it that shouldn't be there. Someone landed a ground (generator?) on the right bar that is wrong and should be moved. At least it looks like they removed the bonding screw from the panel.

Here are some updated pictures. Everything is up and running, I've tested for voltage but haven't got the oven yet. If you get a minute can you take a peak at the pictures. Thanks again for your help.
 

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Highlander

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In the latest group of photos, I'd be a bit concerned about the busbar in that third position on the right (where that mystery breaker landed), maybe it's the flash but that contact looks rather toasty. Bet the back of that breaker doesn't look good either. You might want to leave that spot empty (make sure you get a blank filler for the cover) and use a position further down. Oxidized contacts are bad news especially for a large appliance such as a stove.
 

Mihomeowner

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In the latest group of photos, I'd be a bit concerned about the busbar in that third position on the right (where that mystery breaker landed), maybe it's the flash but that contact looks rather toasty. Bet the back of that breaker doesn't look good either. You might want to leave that spot empty (make sure you get a blank filler for the cover) and use a position further down. Oxidized contacts are bad news especially for a large appliance such as a stove.

No you are right, that is the bar that the suicide generator cord was on so it looks like something didn't work right. I'm going to do as you suggested and move everything down. I also discarded the 30 amp breaker it was attached to.

My next question is, can I add another circuit to this panel? Would I have to do a load calculation to figure that out?
 

Stuff

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Technically, yes, a load calculation is needed. I threw some numbers into a load spreadsheet. Adding a 40 amp load to a panel that has 40 for pool and 30 for a/c is OK but with a few other circuits the calculation goes over 100 amps. So your new range load should go to the main panel.
 

Aaroninnh

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That isn't the only thing that is fishy. Unless it is some weirdness on the photo, that looks like SE cable coming in through the conduit. Aluminum SE, which is fine, but then there is a separate bare copper ground (looks like #4 or so) that is coming through the pipe and landing on the ground bar. I don't know why someone would sleeve SE in PVC conduit and pull a separate ground wire. Maybe going to an auxiliary ground rod? Is this panel in a different building or structure than your main panel? Between that and the generator breaker w/o interlock, this thing looks a little strange.

It definitely has a lot going on. We have NM, SE, PVC, and even some smurf tube...

Anyways, with that burned up stab, I would be replacing the interior of the panel. Since it is a sub panel and you can kill the power it is no biggie to do it. No point taking any chances...
 
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