Softener, Just need some advice and help...

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Reach4

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It says your RO seems to be working. The softener is not keeping up.

Do you need to clean the softener better? Do you need lower C setting? Do you need a higher H setting? It's going to be one or more of those things probably.

You could schedule an early regen, and check the hardness tomorrow.
 

Reach4

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28 drops to turn the water straight from the well to blue.
What a difference from that earlier printed test!
I would set C=43 for now. That is 28 plus iron compensation plus added high-hardness compensation.
 

Claybe

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What a difference from that earlier printed test!
I would set C=43 for now. That is 28 plus iron compensation plus added high-hardness compensation.

I don't think it is much of a difference at all. Don't you multiply the 28 grains per gallon I tested by 17.1 to get mg/l? 28x17.1 is 478.8 mg/l of hardness. The original report was 485 so not much difference at all. Please correct me if I am wrong.

How do you come up with 43 as the number to change the hardness to? I understand you are adding 15 to the 28 i came up with, but why 15? Is this just an educated guess or from experience?
 
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Reach4

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You are both right-- I meant H and ... I mis-calculated, and there is good agreement with the original test.

The way I did it was
(28 +(2.308*5))*1.1=43.494 for H, where the 5 is grain equiv for 1 ppm iron.
See extra factor in https://terrylove.com/forums/index....0-sxt-programming-settings.60651/#post-450189

But looking again, the factor should have been 1.2, which becomes
(28 +(2.308*5))*1.2=47.448, so H=47 or H=48.

I am not sure I am applying that factor right, but for now I am sure that your H needs to be increased. Your softening effectiveness confirms.
 

ditttohead

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Correct. 1 ppm of Iron is compensated at 5 grains of hardness. Not exactly efficient as each ppm of iron = 86 ppm of hardness. This is only an algorithmic compensation that has become the industry standard to reduce the fouling of the resin caused by using the softener for iron reduction. Hardness calculations are highly variable and a simple test kit can only give you so much information. Continued testing especially near the end of the systems capacity is the best way to determine a softeners true capacity.
 

Claybe

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Correct. 1 ppm of Iron is compensated at 5 grains of hardness. Not exactly efficient as each ppm of iron = 86 ppm of hardness. This is only an algorithmic compensation that has become the industry standard to reduce the fouling of the resin caused by using the softener for iron reduction. Hardness calculations are highly variable and a simple test kit can only give you so much information. Continued testing especially near the end of the systems capacity is the best way to determine a softeners true capacity.

I have the softener set to regenerate every 5 days and it is never even close to half way through the gallons of usage. Should I change this back to 7 days or are the extra regenerations needed to keep the resin clean? So, I won't be able to test near the end of the systems capacity. Should I change this? I will change the hardness but my wife is already complaining that the water is too soft?!? I am going to continue to look into the iron filter.

Edit: changed H to 47 and DO to 7 days.

Edit 2: after I make changes how does it affect the regeneration? I made the changes and the remaining gallons went down to 525. How does reserve capacity affect this? My reserve capacity is 240. Will it regen at 240 gallons? Or will it run 525 plus 240 gallons and then regen? Also, since I changed DO today, will it regen again in 7 days?
 
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Reach4

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How does reserve capacity affect this? My reserve capacity is 240. Will it regen at 240 gallons?
At 2 AM, if there are fewer than 240 gallons left, or if the DO days has been reached, it will regen. Otherwise it will go until 2 AM the next night and check again.
 

ditttohead

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The reserve capacity is take off the top so you wont see it on the screen. If you play with the reserve you will notice your system capacity changes accordingly. IE set the reserve to 1000, the system will now be good for 1000 gallons less than before. This has changed over the years so this statement may not always be true. This is why I prefer the variable 7 day/6 week reserve algorithm. It tends to be the most accurate.
 

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I have a question about the Katalox Light system. Does this just use a normal water softener and instead of salt you fill the brine tank with katalox light media? How much KL does it require? How does this work. The reason I ask is that I don't know if I can afford another water softener right now but maybe able to pick one up for free off of Craigslist and convert it to KL if this is how it works.
 

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A KL system would be like a softener, but would have different media inside. However the media requires roughly 3x as much backwash rate as a softener. Some softeners could be modified, by replacing something called the DLFC, others will not make it.

A KL system will not use a brine tank, but it may or may not use a solution tank (like a smaller brine tank with a smaller opening and with better sealing).

There is a KL calculator: http://www.watchwater.com/systems/kl_system.php
This seems to come up with an overestimate of the required amount of KL required.

A KL system is usually followed by a softener, but you can't combine those together well.
 

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I was able to install the twist to clean filter and re-route my water to go through the filter before going into the cistern. I also cleaned out the cisterns and sanitized with bleach. I will also probably be installing another big blue filter after the cisterns before the softener and install a 5 micron or 1 micron filter.

I did have a question. After I changed my H setting to 47, the water feels hard again...why would that be?!? It felt hard before I made the above changes as well. ??? Just wondering why that would happen? I am thinking about going back to 30 for my H setting.
 

Reach4

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I did have a question. After I changed my H setting to 47, the water feels hard again...why would that be?!? It felt hard before I made the above changes as well. ??? Just wondering why that would happen? I am thinking about going back to 30 for my H setting.
The softener figures it needs to regen every C/H gallons. If you reduce H, it will make the softener regen less often.
 

Claybe

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But it already regens every 7 days and never runs out of gallons before regen so I wouldn't think that affects it. Is there such a thing as over softening ans it becomes hard water again? It seems like that is what is happening since I changed the settings. I am going to let it regen again this weekend and check the hardness with the Hach test again.
 

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Okay, I just added 5 gallons of hot water to the brine tank. It got too full and started coming out of the overflow. Should have just done 2 gallons. Then I used a broom handle and poked down as far as I could. Seemed like the salt was a bunch of "mush" below the salt still in solid form on the top. Then initiated a regen. Will see how the water is in the morning. I have not been using a ton of salt in the last 4-5 months. Salt bridge seems like a logical conclusion.

Was a salt bridge formed because I had too much salt in the brine tank? I had it full to the top. What level should I keep the salt at?
 

Reach4

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Your extra brine might cause you to not have fully rinse the brine out of the resin. So if you tasted a little salt tomorrow, that would be the reason.
Will see how the water is in the morning.
Remember the WH is full of harder water, so that morning shower will have the older stuff.

Until you start getting soft water, we cannot be sure, I don't think. But your symptoms sure match bridging.

Was a salt bridge formed because I had too much salt in the brine tank? I had it full to the top. What level should I keep the salt at?
I don't know. I tilt my salt level and don't let my water get much below the low part of the tilt. I felt maybe I was being paranoid, but that could be worth you doing until you have good softening. If you let the water level get totally over the salt, there can be stratification. But I think that as long as some salt is above the water, you cannot stratify.

The way I do it is more effort than needed. I like to keep an eye on it a bit.
 

ditttohead

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Filling a brine tank is not a problem. Salt type tends to be the main cause of bridging. Some salts are more prone to turning into "cake". Potassium Chloride is notorious for problems.

Regardless, it is a good time to disconnect the brine tank, empty it out, clean and sanitize it.
 
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