Then you need 20 gpm for the sprinklers and 5 gpm for the house. A 25 gpm pump will make a lot of difference on the price.
New Well, Need Advice on Systems
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BadDad
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I'm sure this will make you smile @valveman i got the bid back from the big pump company. $19,000
i've got a few more bids coming my way.
Wow! I wasn't expecting $19,000.00, even for a VFD system. There are still some honest and hard working pump installers who will do a good job and a fair price. But as you can see there are some that only care about how many of your Benjamin's they can get their hands on. I think those are the ones who push VFD's as much as possible. Sometimes a homeowner does their own research, thinks he/she has it all figured out, and ask specifically for a VFD system. Unfortunately they will have to learn the hard way not to fall for all the hype in advertising.
I tell people all the time to look at the multitude of companies pushing VFD systems. Google has so many companies pushing their VFD systems that any click on VFD cost 5 bucks, as opposed to a nickle for clicks on most other things. The CSV is the best alternative to a VFD, but I cannot afford to show up on the first 10 pages of clicks for VFD's. Do you think all these companies could afford to pay 5 bucks a click and spend so much more advertising a VFD if it saved the consumer any money? Again just the opposite is true.
The icing on the cake is that people think reducing the pump speed with a VFD will save energy and/or make the pump last longer. Unfortunately most installers won't tell you these things are not true. They just say "give me $19,000 and I will install exactly what you want".
BadDad
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I didnt ask for a VFD, it was what they suggested so i asked them to put a bid.
but holy cow, thats up there.
but holy cow, thats up there.
I know. I think that is very telling. Time to look for a different installer.
Craigpump
In the Trades
Actually.....that $19,000k isn't so bad when you consider how many times it may have to be pulled under warranty. The installer has to cover his expenses somehow.
Craigpump
In the Trades
A friend of mine had to pull an Aquivar set at 800+' today. Been in less than 3 months, no money there.
I hear that all the time. Some guys tell me they have so many call backs on VFD's it is putting them out of business. But hey I bet they will just give him a new pump and/or Aquavar (VFD), no problem right? That is a cheap way out for the manufacturer. Their actual cost on those products is pretty low.
The problem is that Aquavar or Goulds is not going to get the blame. After paying $19,000.00 and being out of water in only 3 months, the customer will just think the pump man doesn't know what he is doing. He probably doesn't even know what brand of pump and VFD he has anyway. The pump man will get another chance or two to warranty and make it right. But as soon as that warranty is out and he ask for more money, they will look around for a different contractor, one that might know what he is doing for a change.
So I guess you are right. If you are going to lose a customer anyway, might as well get $19,000 up front to at least cover the warranty expenses.
Craigpump
In the Trades
My feeling is, and I've expressed here before, dumb pumps have been so reliable for so many years, why change? You promote CSV's, and I understand the advantages. Most consumers don't understand how a mechanical valve can offer the same performance, so it's easy to sell them bigger tanks.
Yeah and big pressure tanks work fine most of the time, especially for people who never use water outside of the house. And if they have never experienced constant pressure, they don’t know they are missing out.
But for the people who have mismatched irrigation systems, heat pumps, floats in cow water troughs, or just use a hose a lot, big tanks don’t cut it. The cycling on and off prematurely destroys their pumps, tanks, check valves, pressure switches, etc. The CSV solves all these problems, makes everything last longer, and delivers constant pressure to boot.
Since the CSV can fix these problem applications, then it will do wonders for house systems with average use. Installers call me because they have a few problem applications that cause them a lot of warranties. The CSV solves these problems and the installer is thrilled. But later when I ask how the CSV’s are working, they tell me they haven’t used anymore, because they haven’t had any more problematic systems. They don’t realize that every water system is a problem just waiting to happen.
But a lot of installers see the light and use a CSV on every application. Not only does the CSV prevent problems, but it gives the installer a price advantage over his competition compared to the guys pushing big tanks or VFD’s. One of these installers told me Friday that he loves to hear his customers say “wow” when they see the constant pressure at the sink or shower for the first time.
The CSV is not a hard sell. It gives you something new and interesting to talk about. The smaller tank keeps you more than price competitive. And once the customer experiences constant pressure and realizes the dependability of the CSV system, they will tell the neighbors how good you are.
For me the small tank became an advertisement. Even customers of other installers would call me just to see how it works.
BadDad
Member
i'm still not clear on how a csv and a small tank will serve me well... every time i turn on a faucet, take a shower, a sprinkler zone turns on, i water hose down the animals or tractor the pump will kick on.
will the csv just not turn the pump on when i need the water?
will the csv just not turn the pump on when i need the water?
Craigpump
In the Trades
Yes it will come on, but because of the way the valve is designed, the pump won't cycle on & off while the water is being used.
Even a huge and expensive 119 gallon pressure tank only holds about 30 gallons of water. 30 gallons is not enough for a normal shower, it is not nearly enough to run a sprinkler zone, and it won't be enough to wash down the animals or the tractor. With the pump having to cycle once for every 30 gallons used, a 20 GPM sprinkler zone would cycle the pump on/off 80 times in only 6 hours, or 320 times per 24 hour day.
With a CSV the pump never cycles while the sprinklers are running, it stays on while you are taking a shower, watering the animals, etc, etc. Even if you ran water 24 hours a day, the pump would only cycle once, not 320 times. So since the CSV takes out so many cycles for the long term uses of water, it doesn't hurt or matter if the pump cycles for maybe 30-50 toilet flushes every day.
And the pump would only cycle for toilet flushes on days when you are NOT irrigating or something. Because if a sprinkler is on, the pump is already running, and flushing a toilet doesn't cause the pump to cycle at all. But this is why we size the pump to produce 25 GPM, even though the sprinkler system is only using 20 GPM. That way there is 5 GPM left for the house when needed. The CSV will adjust the output of the pump from 20 GPM while the sprinklers are on, to 25 GPM when you shower or flush a toilet, then right back to 20 GPM for the sprinklers, without a single on/off cycle.
With a CSV the pump never cycles while the sprinklers are running, it stays on while you are taking a shower, watering the animals, etc, etc. Even if you ran water 24 hours a day, the pump would only cycle once, not 320 times. So since the CSV takes out so many cycles for the long term uses of water, it doesn't hurt or matter if the pump cycles for maybe 30-50 toilet flushes every day.
And the pump would only cycle for toilet flushes on days when you are NOT irrigating or something. Because if a sprinkler is on, the pump is already running, and flushing a toilet doesn't cause the pump to cycle at all. But this is why we size the pump to produce 25 GPM, even though the sprinkler system is only using 20 GPM. That way there is 5 GPM left for the house when needed. The CSV will adjust the output of the pump from 20 GPM while the sprinklers are on, to 25 GPM when you shower or flush a toilet, then right back to 20 GPM for the sprinklers, without a single on/off cycle.
BadDad
Member
Craigpump
In the Trades
What brand of pump?
What brand of tank?
No labor charge?
No charge for the hoist truck?
Warranties?
As my father used to say, "Cheap work isn't good & good work isn't cheap"
What brand of tank?
No labor charge?
No charge for the hoist truck?
Warranties?
As my father used to say, "Cheap work isn't good & good work isn't cheap"
BadDad
Member
i specified that i want the grundfoss 5hp 40gpm.
i dont know what brand water tank, but i'll call them and get the details. if it seems too good to be true then i'll walk.
i also told my well DRILLER to give me a new quote, they packed up today and i gave them the check for the balance of the payment.
i dont know what brand water tank, but i'll call them and get the details. if it seems too good to be true then i'll walk.
i also told my well DRILLER to give me a new quote, they packed up today and i gave them the check for the balance of the payment.
BadDad
Member
ok, just got off the phone with them, they didnt quote me for a grundfoss... i'll have them come out and we'll discuss my needs and i'll have them give me a bid on exactly what i need.
a grundfoss with a CSV and a 119g pressure tank.
a grundfoss with a CSV and a 119g pressure tank.
BadDad
Member
So i've decided to post on a local ag/horse group on FB and see if i can get any more recommendations. all of a sudden i got like 8 people's #'s that were not showing up on google search.
called and spoke with all of them, they all came back with great bids, ranging from 7500~9k for a 5hp 40gpm (some recommended a 35gpm) grundfoss pump set at 400' feet.
however hardly any of them were familiar or recommended a CSV. i guess they are not very popular around here...
at the moment i'm only asking for the bid for the pump being set and control box. i'll do the rest of the install from there. most likely i'll do a CSV per the suggestions on here.
my well driller suggested 2 gallons of bleach in my well, one guy said he wants to use 12 gallons, whoa.. is that nuts or is that about right??
8" well, static water at 200ish 600' deep.
called and spoke with all of them, they all came back with great bids, ranging from 7500~9k for a 5hp 40gpm (some recommended a 35gpm) grundfoss pump set at 400' feet.
however hardly any of them were familiar or recommended a CSV. i guess they are not very popular around here...
at the moment i'm only asking for the bid for the pump being set and control box. i'll do the rest of the install from there. most likely i'll do a CSV per the suggestions on here.
my well driller suggested 2 gallons of bleach in my well, one guy said he wants to use 12 gallons, whoa.. is that nuts or is that about right??
8" well, static water at 200ish 600' deep.
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