Joy of Katalox Short Lived

[ktop]

Just curious why you replaced your Filox? Was it fouled? Did you not have enough BW? After 8 years I'd assume neither.

Hi JRC3- sometimes I feel I should have kept my filox
Was not fouled that i know of but was consistently getting .3mg/l of iron after filox.
Had to treat softener with rescare regularly and it eventually killed my resin. backwash was 9 gpm (kinda high).
Thought was could use KL get the iron down and reduce the BW gpm and frequency.
So Iron is good after KL- testing (test strips) now shows .01 -.03 after KL regularly.
But I may have substituted one problem for another - regularly getting smelly water after KL replacement.

 

[MichaelSK]

I used University of Illinois - Illinois State Water Survey. Tests are reasonably priced ($35 each) and quite comprehensive.
They do not test for bacteria or tannins though and additional items like lead are extra.
http://www.isws.illinois.edu/chem/psl/

I also had tests done after iron/softener and after RO. Strontium was kicked way down to 17.4 micro gr/l after iron filter and softener.
And further down to .55 micro gr/l after RO. Attached is water test after iron& softener.
These numbers are from before I rebedded my softener and replaced filox with KL

Spoke with a Chemist at ISWS re possible Tannins in my water, they do not test for tannin specifically.
They indicated the combined Non-Volatile Organic Carbon number plus Color (PCU) value can be a good indicator of presence of tannins.

I am waiting for my tannin test kit from NTL labs now

I took a quick look at your water analysis - I don't think you even need the katalox lite with that level of iron. (You do not have hydrogen sulfide in the water - right?) If you test for H2S, it must be done immediately at the well head because it is volatile. Hach makes a simple color-metric test kit that uses a gold alka-seltzer. You can also test the "smelly" water in the house for H2S.

I am betting that your system is growing bacteria that are producing the smell (H2S). But I don't know anything about the water conditions in your area.

I am thinking your solution could be: proportional NaClO injector (goal is 2ppm if you have significant fulvic and humic acids, else you could go higher and use a smaller treatment tank) appropriately sized treatment tank (dwell time is based on water temperature, pH, free chlorine, household utilization), zeolite filter such as NextSand (appropriately sized based on household utilization), activated carbon (again appropriately sized based on household utilization), softener with a resin such as Purolite SST-60.

As an aside, if bacteria ARE NOT a problem requiring chlorine, then the SST-60 resin will handle clear water iron (ferrous) at your levels without any problem if you add citric acid to the brining solution and regenerate the resin with the citric acid cleaner about every ten days (of course the system needs to be sized appropriately).

 

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[MichaelSK]

Ktop, I am a nurse....not very familiar with the nomenclature of water treatment.... Reach4 told me that the tank used to ensure the NaClO contact time is sufficient, is best called a CONTACT TANK.

 

[Reach4]

google EPA, strontium, new guidelines

I tried that yesterday before posting. Usually I am pretty good at that, but I am not finding what you find. Could you Google that for me?

 

[MichaelSK]

I tried that yesterday before posting. Usually I am pretty good at that, but I am not finding what you find. Could you Google that for me?

There is not a federal drinking water standard for strontium at this time. The EPA has set a health reference level for strontium. As of October 2014 the health reference level for strontium was listed as 1.5 milligrams per liter (mg/L). It is possible that EPA will decide to regulate strontium in the future. EPA will examine both potential health risks and the UCMR3 occurrence data when determining if strontium should be regulated. EPA’s decision to regulate is based in large part on whether the UCMR3 testing shows a significant number of U.S. drinking water systems have concentrations of strontium at levels EPA finds to be a concern. (American Water Works Association Drinktap.org)

 

[ktop]

I am betting that your system is growing bacteria that are producing the smell (H2S).

That is what I was thinkin.
Never really had an issue with Filox and smell.
- thinkin the KL being a 3 micron sediment filter is allowing bacteria/stink to accumulate.
KL is suppose to remove H2S (if it exists already)
guess it never said anything about bacteria growth in bed that may produce smell

Day 4 - no stink.
Backwashing daily.
Last softener regen was like 5 days ago

 

[ktop]

i am sure a NaClO feed would work - just not ready for injection, more tanks, carbon.....
If issue continues and find the KL bed is causing stink - may just put Filox back in

 

[MichaelSK]

i am sure a NaClO feed would work - just not ready for injection, more tanks, carbon.....
If issue continues and find the KL bed is causing stink - may just put Filox back in

As I said, I do not believe you need the KL or Filox with your current iron levels. If you don't have bacteria, you could just use a softener with the resin SST-60 and citric acid. (Can bulk purchase citric acid at Duda Diesel https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric)

Use peracetic acid to sterilize the softener. You will need to find the product locally - I suggest a large agricultural supply company; farmers and packers use it to sterilize produce and fruit.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for the response.
Were you able to resolve your customers smelly water?
Is what you are referring one of below?
1. Inline injection prior to KL
2. Injection plus contact tank
3. Regen with chlorine solution
4. other

I would try #3 because it is I would think it would be simple if you have a programmable controller. What is your controller? You don't need to have a solution tank. You could just use a bleach bottle containing diluted bleach until the success is proven or disproven.

 

[MichaelSK]

I would try #3 because it is I would think it would be simple if you have a programmable controller. What is your controller? You don't need to have a solution tank. You could just use a bleach bottle containing diluted bleach until the success is proven or disproven.

Diluted "Clorox" is more stable than undiluted. However, it is very important that the water used to dilute the Clorox does NOT have any iron in it - none.

My well supplies potable water and non-potable water demands concurrently. Therefore I needed a proportional feeder on the potable side. If you require a proportional feeder to titrate the NaOCl, then try: Seametrics Model MJNR-100-4P flowmeter and Pulsafeeder Model LB64EA-VVC1-XXX

 

[MichaelSK]

Diluted "Clorox" is more stable than undiluted. However, it is very important that the water used to dilute the Clorox does NOT have any iron in it - none.

My well supplies potable water and non-potable water demands concurrently. Therefore I needed a proportional feeder on the potable side. If you require a proportional feeder to titrate the NaOCl, then try: Seametrics Model MJNR-100-4P flowmeter and Pulsafeeder Model LB64EA-VVC1-XXX

This solution is primarily used for iron metabolizing bacteria treatment.

 

[ktop]

Thanks All.

I would try #3 because it is I would think it would be simple if you have a programmable controller. What is your controller? You don't need to have a solution tank. You could just use a bleach bottle containing diluted bleach until the success is proven or disproven.

Reach - I have an Autotrol Logix 263/740 timer based Controller currently used in "F" Filter mode.
Backwash and fast rinse only.
I Believe I can convert to Softener/Conditioner by reprogramming and adding injector plug/brine line/brine pickup with aircheck.
If I am reading valve settings correctly - brine draw time is not programmable. ie would draw all brine
maybe worth a shot though.

Smell from cold side has subsided considerably.
believe it "maybe" SFR related.
I am monitoring but it seems when water is being heavily used or just after - smell occurs.

Believe the 9x48 is considered by Watchwater/KL to not have "minimal" required bed height.
They say min depth of KL bed should be 75 cm/29.5 inch.
Seems with 9x48 would only get 68/69 cm.
Wonder if that s why WatchWater does not even show ratings for 9x48 tank.
They have 8x44 then 10x54 (skip 9x48)
Wonder if 9x48 is not recommended and I am exceeding SFR

 

[Reach4]

I Believe I can convert to Softener/Conditioner by reprogramming and adding injector plug/brine line/brine pickup with aircheck.
If I am reading valve settings correctly - brine draw time is not programmable. ie would draw all brine
maybe worth a shot though.

In my iron+softener sulfur filter. which draws a little over a gallon from the solution tank each regen, I set the brine fill to zero. So the only water I use is topping up the 15 gallon solution tank with water after the gallon of bleach. If you can make yours not refill, you could do the same. An alternative Ditttohead has commented on is to let the controller refill a tad to clear the "brine" line of bleach solution. IIRC, he has also brought up the possibility letting the controller provide all of the water for the solution and using a slow-release chlorine tab in the solution tank. Now if that worked, that would be a time saver (not that putting a gallon of bleach plus topping up with water every 5 weeks is a major chore).

If you try that, I suggest you get some high range free chlorine test paper for information. I have Hydrion Cm-240. However, using https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/ServicesAndTools/Tools/Pages/Dilution-Calculator.aspx , I was surprised to calculate that my bleach solution is about 5000 ppm free chlorine. So I would have to do some serious dilution of a test sample before sticking a 200 ppm chlorine test paper in the sample.

Take notes.

 

[MichaelSK]

In my iron+softener which draws a little over a gallon from the solution tank each regen, I set the brine fill to zero. So the only water I use is topping up the 15 gallon solution tank with water after the gallon of bleach. If you can make yours not refill, you could do the same. An alternative Ditttohead has commented on is to let the controller refill a tad to clear the "brine" line of bleach solution. IIRC, he has also brought up the possibility letting the controller provide all of the water for the solution and using a slow-release chlorine tab in the solution tank. Now if that worked, that would be a time saver (not that putting a gallon of bleach plus topping up with water every 5 weeks is a major chore).

If you try that, I suggest you get some high range free chlorine test paper for information. I have Hydrion Cm-240. However, using https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/ServicesAndTools/Tools/Pages/Dilution-Calculator.aspx , I was surprised to calculate that my bleach solution is about 5000 ppm free chlorine. So I would have to do some serious dilution of a test sample before sticking a 200 ppm chlorine test paper in the sample.

Take notes.

If you are using chlorine in front of a softener, be very careful on your free chlorine at the softener inlet. Chlorine will destroy the resin. In any case, IMHO I would use a 10% cross-linked styrene divinylbenzene strong acid cation resin instead of a cheaper 8%. I have been very pleased with the performance of the Purolite SST-60. It is very salt efficient, and removes iron without difficulty/fouling (I add citric acid to the KCL brine).

 

[Reach4]

f you are using chlorine in front of a softener, be very careful on your free chlorine at the softener inlet. Chlorine will destroy the resin.

We are discussing the use of the chlorine during the regeneration, which then gets followed by a long rinse before the media is put back into service.

 

[MichaelSK]

I suppose I was confused when you wrote "In my iron+softener which draws......" I thought you used NaOCl routinely in your softener....

If you guys can determine if the bacteria are producing significant amounts of slime, then consider using peracetic acid. We use it in healthcare. (a 0.1% solution with a 1 hour dwell time will clean all the slime and disinfect all organisms and cysts.) Obviously, it will completely restore the KL or Filox.

 

[Reach4]

I suppose I was confused when you wrote "In my iron+softener which draws......"

Oops... I meant iron+sulfur. Fingers took off on their own.