This pump with CSV

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Tim Van

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Hello. I currently have a 1HP 20GPM pump set at 165'. It's not really designed for that depth so doesn't pump down anywhere near that far. The water table is typically at about 35' so it does put out a lot until it drains the well down, but not anywhere near the pump depth. I put it in about a year ago because my pump had failed and it was all I could get really quick - and it was cheap at Home Depot.

Anyhow, I'm considering buying another pump as a backup and am not able to buy a really expensive one like a Gould. I do a lot of irrigating around the house (big garden and do yard too) so I want a pump that will output a lot. I'm looking at a Tuhorse:
http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...-complete-pump-end-motor-control-box-pro-set/
I figure it should easily handle the depth and still be pumping about 26 or so GPM at that depth, or close to it. One reason I'm looking at this pump is because I may also have the well deepened to 300' and fracked later on with the pump setting at 280' whereat, it should still pump about 13 GPM.

I said all that because I have a question concerning a CSV. I currently use one on my 1HP 20 GPM which isn't rated for much depth and a pressure gauge right off the pump shows it goes to just over 100psi when it turns on and then the CSV holds it at about 85psi while water is running at at least 3GPM and on the pressure switch side of the CSV shows 50psi (the switch is set at 40 on, 60 off, and so I've set the CSV to hold it at 50psi). So, my question is concerning what I assume will be MUCH higher pressure on the pump side of the CSV with the more powerful pump and wondering how I deal with that pressure. Should I add a 100psi or so pressure relief valve at the top of the pipe so it can just blow back into the well? Any suggestions of corrections of my assumptions?

Thanks,
Tim
 

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I have heard good things about the Tuhorse pump. Probably as good as any. Because it is a higher volume pump, it will produce less pressure. Actually from 35' that pump will have 100 PSI backpressure on the CSV, the same as your 1HP pump. If the water level pulls down to 100', that pump will still produce 26 GPM and 50 PSI. But if the water gets any deeper that pump starts to fade out. It would work at a max water depth of about 150' and still produce about 15 GPM.

You don't need to worry about the pressure, and anyway you should never put a relief valve before a CSV. A relief valve after the CSV is good for a safety.

For a CSV setting of 50 PSI to use with a 40/60 switch, you can use either the CSV2W/1 GPM, or one of the CSV12550-1 inline valves. A 20 gallon size pressure tank would work with either CSV.
 

Tim Van

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Thanks for the reply valveman.

So that pump would give me more than my 1hp pump but wouldn't pump anymore if I made the well any deeper, except for whatever the advantage of the increased flow created by the fracking?

I was looking at the "shut-off head" at the link below and interpretted that as how much pressure the pump (275 at 420' for a 20GPM 2HP pump) would make - more than the pipe could take I was thinking requiring a relief valve before anything else with the use of the CSV, but I guess I misinterpreted the information. What does the "shut-off head" and the associated "feet" mean in that table?
http://www.berkeleypumps.com/resources/images/2274.pdf
 

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Ok you are looking at two different pumps. The BF08 Tuhorse is a 30 GPM series that can only build about 100 PSI shut off head from 35'. The Berkeley pump you are looking at is a 20 GPM series that can dead head at 173 PSI from 35'. Tuhorse also makes a 20 GPM series in the A12. These 20 GPM series pumps are the ones you would want if you deepen the well. These will still pump about 10 GPM from nearly 300' deep, where the 30 GPM series pumps will quit at abut 100'.

So with the 20 GPM series pumps you would see 173 PSI before the CSV when the water level is at 35'. And the backpressure will decrease as the water level in the well decreases. 173 PSI before the CSV won't hurt anything, and this would leave you with a pump that will still produce from 300' later if needed.
 

Tim Van

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Ok you are looking at two different pumps. The BF08 Tuhorse is a 30 GPM series that can only build about 100 PSI shut off head from 35'. The Berkeley pump you are looking at is a 20 GPM series that can dead head at 173 PSI from 35'. Tuhorse also makes a 20 GPM series in the A12. These 20 GPM series pumps are the ones you would want if you deepen the well. These will still pump about 10 GPM from nearly 300' deep, where the 30 GPM series pumps will quit at abut 100'.

So with the 20 GPM series pumps you would see 173 PSI before the CSV when the water level is at 35'. And the backpressure will decrease as the water level in the well decreases. 173 PSI before the CSV won't hurt anything, and this would leave you with a pump that will still produce from 300' later if needed.

- just remembered that the reason I was mostly concerned about the pressure between pump and CSV is the age of the piping from the well, into the house as shown in the picture. It is, as far as I know, the original in my near 60 year old house. I'm not sure what schedule the poly pipe down to the pump is but it may also be inadequate for the 175psi the new 2HP 20GPM pump could produce?

Having thought about it that to get the most GPM through the CSV, I would need the most pressure heading into it, so I'm kinda in a quandary as to how to deal with the pressure and old piping.
 

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Yeah that does look like 160# poly pipe. It would probably be alright with 173 PSI, but you can split the difference and get a 25 GPM, 2HP pump instead of the 20 GPM pump. Then the backpressure would only be 129 PSI, and it would still work down to 250' water level.
 

Tim Van

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Yeah that does look like 160# poly pipe. It would probably be alright with 173 PSI, but you can split the difference and get a 25 GPM, 2HP pump instead of the 20 GPM pump. Then the backpressure would only be 129 PSI, and it would still work down to 250' water level.

Perfect! Would you happen to know the Tuhorse number for that? Their ratings are a bit confusing since the TH-A12 that you mentioned is actually shown as 22GPM and the one I originally mentioned at the link I gave was shown as 23GPM. A search at their site for 25GPM, and a search for 2HP 25GPM Tuhorse using Google brings me to their TH4-VC-10 but it doesn't specifically say 25GPM there:
http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...-complete-pump-end-motor-control-box-pro-set/

I'm guessing, with all the talk about GPM, that the various GPM at various levels are based on 50psi?
 

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I'm guessing, with all the talk about GPM, that the various GPM at various levels are based on 50psi?
I would guess zero PSI, and that you would subtract about 115 from the numbers for 50 PSI.
 

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I'm guessing, with all the talk about GPM, that the various GPM at various levels are based on 50psi?

Yes I was figuring in the 50 PSI from those depths. I don't think Tuhorse makes a 25 GPM pump. I was looking at Goulds and Grundfos.

I was also looking at the picture again and that looks like 1" or maybe even 3/4 Poly pipe. You won't be able to get 26 GPM down that small pipe for very far. Might have to rethink the pump size?

Another option for the CSV is to put the CSV12550-1 in the well or the CSV1A beside the well. This will take all the backpressure (except 40/60) off the underground line.
 

Tim Van

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Yes I was figuring in the 50 PSI from those depths. I don't think Tuhorse makes a 25 GPM pump. I was looking at Goulds and Grundfos.

I was also looking at the picture again and that looks like 1" or maybe even 3/4 Poly pipe. You won't be able to get 26 GPM down that small pipe for very far. Might have to rethink the pump size?

Another option for the CSV is to put the CSV12550-1 in the well or the CSV1A beside the well. This will take all the backpressure (except 40/60) off the underground line.


That line only goes for about 15-20' to the pitless adaptor. It's only 3/4 poly. I have no idea why they put something that small in even for such a short distance. With a sidewalk over it, it would be a little difficult to replace. Even putting the CSV near the well, would the poly attached to the pump take the pressure - not sure what they were using near-60 years ago? I'm guessing the just-over 120 wouldn't be a problem, but much more, might be? I should have determined the size of the poly last time I replaced the pump but didn't think to do so at the time.
 

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That line only goes for about 15-20' to the pitless adaptor. It's only 3/4 poly. I have no idea why they put something that small in even for such a short distance. With a sidewalk over it, it would be a little difficult to replace. Even putting the CSV near the well, would the poly attached to the pump take the pressure - not sure what they were using near-60 years ago? I'm guessing the just-over 120 wouldn't be a problem, but much more, might be? I should have determined the size of the poly last time I replaced the pump but didn't think to do so at the time.

The poly in the well and even that 3/4 underground is 160# pipe. So it can take the backpressure, but it would be hard to try and force more than about 10 GPM down that 3/4. A CSV will work either way, it is just a matter of how many GPM's you want that is needed to size the pump.
 

Tim Van

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The poly in the well and even that 3/4 underground is 160# pipe. So it can take the backpressure, but it would be hard to try and force more than about 10 GPM down that 3/4. A CSV will work either way, it is just a matter of how many GPM's you want that is needed to size the pump.


Great to know about the pressures! GPM greater than even just 13GPM would be fine. My main concern is just pulling the water level down further at 50psi with at least "decent" GPM than I can with my current 1HP 20GPM pump which it seems the 2HP Tuhorse you recommended will.

Thanks valveman, I really appreciate you sticking with me answering my many questions. You've been a HUGE help!
 

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From that depth and adding 50 PSI the 1HP, 20 GPM pump should be putting out 20 GPM. I would replace the underground 3/4 pipe with 1 1/4 pipe before I deepened the well. It doesn't matter how large a pump you have if your water line is only big enough to squirt 10 GPM through it.
 

Tim Van

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From that depth and adding 50 PSI the 1HP, 20 GPM pump should be putting out 20 GPM. I would replace the underground 3/4 pipe with 1 1/4 pipe before I deepened the well. It doesn't matter how large a pump you have if your water line is only big enough to squirt 10 GPM through it.


Thanks again!
The current 1HP pump "does" put out enough until the level drops to where it can no longer pump it out - nowhere near the 165' where it's sitting. I figure the 2HP pump would pump the GPM down to a greater depth (near the 165'), providing me with more water for a while until the well is at a level where it needs to take a while to refill.
 

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At 20 GPM you will lose 30 PSI for every 100' of 3/4 poly. That makes the pump think it is 69' deeper than it is. In other words, if you had 1 1/4' pipe instead of 3/4, the 1HP pump would produce the same amount from 100' deep as it is now from 35'.

A larger pump will produce more from a greater depth, and will push more through the smaller pipe. But the 3/4 pipe is making you use at least 1/2 or 3/4 more HP than you would need with 1 1/4" pipe.
 

Tim Van

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At 20 GPM you will lose 30 PSI for every 100' of 3/4 poly. That makes the pump think it is 69' deeper than it is. In other words, if you had 1 1/4' pipe instead of 3/4, the 1HP pump would produce the same amount from 100' deep as it is now from 35'.

A larger pump will produce more from a greater depth, and will push more through the smaller pipe. But the 3/4 pipe is making you use at least 1/2 or 3/4 more HP than you would need with 1 1/4" pipe.

Makes sense. Now after all this discussion, I'm wondering if I should just go with a 1HP 10GPM (or 2HP, but haven't looked at the 2HP 10GPM) which would handle everything about the same as the 2HP 20GPM due to the 3/4" pipe restriction, with less power consumed. So I see your point that if I go with the bigger pump, I should definitely do something with the pipe feeding into the house.

Thanks,
Tim
 
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Tim Van

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At 20 GPM you will lose 30 PSI for every 100' of 3/4 poly. That makes the pump think it is 69' deeper than it is. In other words, if you had 1 1/4' pipe instead of 3/4, the 1HP pump would produce the same amount from 100' deep as it is now from 35'.

A larger pump will produce more from a greater depth, and will push more through the smaller pipe. But the 3/4 pipe is making you use at least 1/2 or 3/4 more HP than you would need with 1 1/4" pipe.

I just noticed that you may think I have 3/4" poly in the well - it's actually 1-1/4 poly in the well, and then only about 15-20' of 3/4" poly from pitless adapter to the house.
 

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I'm wondering if I should just go with a 1HP 10GPM (or 2HP, but haven't looked at the 2HP 10GPM) which would handle everything about the same as the 2HP 20GPM due to the 3/4" pipe restriction.
See the attached table, which I had handy. Note the shutoff PSI, which represents the deadhead pressure at a given depth to water.

There are charts available for other pump sizes. In 10 GPM pumps, I think 1 HP would be plenty. Even 3/4 HP might be a good fit. If you add the CSV, allow maybe 10 ft or 5 PSI to compensate for a bit of resistance .

For irrigation, it is best if the load consumes most of the available GPM. For mixed use, that is not as easy to balance. I think there is a need for a valve to shut off irrigation loads if the water pressure drops below some setpoint, such as 45 PSI. Then it should turn back on when the pressure rises. That way household use would have priority. I don't know if such a valve exists at consumer prices. The CSV is nice for irrigation because it makes up for the varying load.

http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/ lets you predict a pressure drop. I would use 1 mm for the pipe roughness unless you have more info. You can select the units with the drop-downs. Take defaults, and don't forget to select US units at the bottom. I got 11.3 PSI drop for 20 GPM and 50 ft. I used 50 ft instead of 20 ft to compensate for fittings or whatever, and to make a more conservative estimate.
 

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