Choosing a reliable boiler

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EKent

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Good Morning Everyone - I am looking for some advice

We have a home in New England where we are looking to replace the entire heating system (along with a complete renovation). The previous setup was a mess with an oil fired boiler and a propane fired water heater and a wood fireplace venting out one flue.

A little about the home:
*roughly 2500 sq ft
*to be newly insulated with sprayfoam
*all new double-hung Anderson new construction windows installed

And this is the setup we are looking for:
*Oil-fired boiler - as efficient and reliable as possible, not overly worried about cost
*Indirect oil-fired water heater, stainless steel tank
*MUST be power or direct vent, we can no longer use the one flue for this system, to be vented out the side of the existing granite foundation
*the heating system will be hydronic wall radiators

Now I know some basics about valves and circulators and pumps and such, but I know nothing about boiler/water heater brands and their reliability. I have done a lot of research and asked people their opinions, looked up reviews and efficiency ratings, read about how efficiency is calculated and so forth...but Im still stumped. There are so many brands and models.

So what I'm asking is for input on brand, model, style, etc that would be the best fit. The professional I got a quote from suggested Biasi B-10 or a System 2000 from Energy Kinetics, but to be honest, I'm not impressed with what I have learned about either of those. I have a friend who suggested either Burnham or Slant-Fin, which are names Ive heard of along with Buderus, Veissman, etc...

Thank you for any and all input!
 

Dana

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With a 2500' home you're probably better off with an oil-fired HW heater set up as a combi heater, or an electric HW heater and some mini-split heat pumps.

You don't give many particulars about the home or it's R-values/U-factors, or the amount of radiation, etc. A typical tightened-up 2x4 house with clear glass double-panes comes in at about 15 BTU/hr per foot of conditioned space @ 0F, so you're looking at a design heat load of under 40,000 BTU/hr. If it's 2x6 framing with U0.35 or lower windows it'll be more like 30,000 BTU/hr. Before you do anything it's going to pay to have an engineer or RESNET rater run an aggressive Manual-J load calculation on the "after" picture of your intended building envelope upgrades.

The smallest oil burners out there run about twice that much, so there's really no such thing as a "good fit". The best you're going to do is a "least bad fit", which means having sufficient thermal mass to eliminate short-cycling of the burner, and divorcing burner operation from calls for heat, letting it work down the stored heat of the thermal mass first. (This is particularly important if the place is broken up into multiple zones. ) That's pretty easily done with an oil fired hot water heater and an external heat exchange to isolate the potable from the heating system water.

If you have a heating history on the place you can use the old boiler as the measuring instrument to determine the heat load of the house in the "before upgrades" picture using this methodology. If the house was on a regular fill up service that stamps a "K-factor" on the slips, mid to late winter fill-up's K-factor would be good enough starting point, since the K-factor is "heating degree-days per gallon". With a fuel use derived load number you'll have a firm upper bound on what the heat load could be.

On the building upgrades front there are lots of ways to over-spend, and opportunity moments that shouldn't be overlooked during a major energy performance rehab. To help narrow in on the best bang/buck:

Full basement, crawlspace, or slab on grade?

Is the foundation insulated? (if yes, how?P

What type & how much foam is being planned?

Siding type?

Attic-R= ?

Exterior chimney, or fully inside the exterior walls?

Is the fireplace air-tight, or is it an old-school open hearth?
 

EKent

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Hi Dana, Thanks for the reply. As far as Electric goes, thats not an avenue we are willing to go down for various reasons that I wont go into right now.

To be more specific about the home - it was originally built in 1938 on an even older granite foundation with full basement.
The foundation is not insulated beyond being around 2 feet thick or so and solid granite.
The exterior walls are 2x4 construction (actual 2"x4" not 1.5"x3.5"), currently the home is completely gutted and we are rebuilding.
The windows will be Andersen 400 series double hung windows which have LowE4 insulated glass.
For spray foam insulation it will be closed cell. There will be 3 inches in all the exterior walls and along rim joists in basement for an R rating of 21. Still unsure of how we plan to insulate the attic - wary about sprayfoam, hate fiberglass, never used blown in. It will be at least an R rating of 38.
Siding is wooden clapboards.
As far as chimneys, there are 2. One 7 foot wide granite chimney that used to have an ugly brick fireplace in front of. We tore that out and found the chimney was solid all the way up except a hole for the flue so we will be having a woodstove in front of it, the chimney is part of the inside of the house. There is also a brick chimney on the outside of the house, its fairly small, also used for a woodstove.
Additional info - When finished the house will be 4 beds, 2 full baths, fairly open concept (as in the first floor is mainly one large room along with a bedroom and a bathroom). Only intended to have 3 zones running off the boiler - first floor, second floor, and indirect water heater.

Hope this is what you were looking for. Any other questions, just ask.
 

Dana

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The 3" of closed cell is a waste of money. You'll be MUCH better off with 4" of open cell, despite being only ~R15 at center cavity. The reason for this is that the framing fraction on full-dimension lumber framing is over 25% of the wall surface area, and with the 3" thick thermal bridge of the framing fraction is only ~R3.5, and that 25% framing fraction is conducting more heat than the R21 foam. If you go for a full cavity fill of half-pound open cell the framing fraction rises to about R5, and the net "whole-wall R" is slightly higher.

If you count up the insulating value of the sheathing, siding, wall board and gypsum board and account for the thermal bridging of the framing, even at 25% (which would be typical for milled lumber) the R7/inch 3" solution comes in at about R11.35 "whole wall, and the 4" of R3.7/inch open cell foam comes in at R11.6.

At a more likely 28% framing fraction the 3" closed cell solution comes in at about R10.8, compared to R11.2 for the 4" open cell solution.

In the unlikely event that the house had a 20% framing fraction (balloon framed, single top plates & headers, few jack studs, etc. ) the 3"c.c. edges out the 4" o.c. solution at R12.5 to R12.3. That's the most expensive R0.2 you can buy.

The closed cell solution is a class-II vapor retarder, and offers protection for the sheathing from interior moisture drives whereas the open cell does not, but it also offers very little drying rate toward the interior. For about 15 cents per square foot you can install 2-mil nylon (Certainteed MemBrain) on the interior side of the open cell foam. During the winter when the air is dry the nylon is a Class-II vapor retarder, and protetive of interior moisture drives. But when the sun starts cooking accumulated dew or wintertime moisture out of the sheathing the sheet nylon becomes more vapor open, and allows some of that moisture to dry toward the interior. Odds are pretty good that the antique clapboards have coats of oil base (or even leaded) paint, which is very vapor retardent, so the drying a capacity toward the exterior is limited. If you insulate with closed cell foam the moisture content of the siding will be higher, and paint failure more frequent than with an open cell + sheet nylon solution.

Closed cell foam runs about $1/board foot, so you're looking at $3/square foot for the R21 foam. Open cell foam runs about 35 cents per board foot, so 4" of foam would run about $1.40 per square foot, plus the cost of the 2 mil nylon comes in at about $1.50/square foot, it's literally half the cost for similar or higher thermal performance and delivers greater moisture resilience.

Also, the environmental impact of open cell foam is also just a fraction that of closed cell. The full 4" has the same amount of polymer as 1" of closed cell, and open cell foam is blown with water, whereas nearly all R7/inch closed cell foam is blown with HFC245fa, a powerful greenhouse gas (~1000x CO2 @ 100 years.) Putting closed cell foam between studs is an utter waste- it's much better put to use where it's moisture characteristics actually buy you something:

The band joists can be insulated with either 1" of closed cell + R23 rock wool batts, or 5.5" of open cell. The foundation below grade would meet code-min with 2" of closed cell, or 1" of closed cell plus a 2x4/R13 studwall (no vapor retarders desired or necessary, but kraft facers are OK) if you opt to finish it out. An uninsulated unsealed quarried granite foundation is a huge air & heat leak. If left untreated it would probably account for the majority of your air infiltration, and more than 25% of your total heat load (even if you insulated between the joists), and the summertime infiltration will contribute a huge latent cooling load to the house (== musty basement smell.) Sealed and insulated with some amount of closed cell foam (even if it's in combination with fiber) the heat loads and moisture load will drop by 90%, the basement will be both more comfortable and smell lot better (or need a lot less mechanical dehumidification.)

If the roof vented, what is the venting scheme- soffit to ridge, gable vents, or ??? Is this house going to be re-roofed?

In a vented attic air sealing the attic floor and going with blown cellulose is superior to fiberglass. Air sealing attic floor the chimney chases requires metal air-barriers mortared &/or caulked with fire-rated caulk. You can then wrap the chimney with R15 rock wool batts secured with steel wire to keep it from falling off, after which it's safe to use blown cellulose.

The exterior chimney can be insulated on the exterior if it's otherwise going to be a gaping hole in your thermal envelope. Making the wood-stove flue penetrations fully air tight can be difficult, but it's possible to signficantly reduce what would be an significant air leak. Blocking the parasitic air leaks of the granite fireplace can be more difficult, but if it's a terra cotta lined flue in reasonable shape, gasketed top sealing dampers are superior to any steel flap damper that might have been original equipment.

If using a boiler instead of a water heater, the amount of radiation on each zone has to be reasonable for the boiler output to keep it from short cycling, and since the boiler will of-necessity be oversized for the whole house load. To fully balance heat emitted from the radiation with the ~74,000 BTU/hr output of something like the smallest Burnham MPO-IQ, would take about 120 feet of typical fin-tube baseboard, even running it at 190F-200F output. If any one zone has less than half that the short-cycling during single zone calls will be pretty severe, even with heat purging smart controls. The 61K output of the smallest 3-plate Biasi B10 would still need at least 100' to balance. But with a likely heat load of something like 35-40,000 BTU/hr it would only take 80' of baseboard to fully heat the place, with margin to spare, and it would be broken up into zones each of which would be a in short-cycling territory.

If instead of a boiler you used a hot water heater and designed the radiation for 140F average water temp it would take about 125' of baseboard total (on the order of 2x that of a high-temp solution), but the thing won't short cycle due to the buffering thermal mass of the water in the tank. Something like a 30 gallon or bigger Bock , or any Everhot TFI would have enough burner output to cover your design heat load AND a simultaneous 2.5 gpm shower all day/night long on the coldest day of the winter.
 

Dana

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BTW: I had to look it up, but granite runs about R0.05 per inch. That means that even at 20" wall thickness it would still be only R1.

Also, what is your ZIP code (for 99% design temp and weather data purposes)
 

EKent

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That is a lot of information, but I'm grateful for it. I think we agree with your suggestion of open cell in the walls.
As far as the roof and venting goes, we will not be installing a new roof yet. The house is a Gambrel style with Gable Vents on either end.
My spouse has informed me that he loathes fiberglass and blown in insulation, so I was doing some research on using spray foam in the attic. What Ive read says the best way to go is putting it on the attic floor and NOT the roof sheathing. Also, it seems that open cell on the attic floor with attic ventilation is better than closed cell. Or that's what I've read anyway.

The zip code for this home 03038.

Speaking on the boiler/water heater subject, I guess I dont fully understand how ONLY a water heater would work for heating the home. Also, we will not be using standard baseboard heaters. We will be installing hydronic wall radiators such as the Myson T6
http://www.mysoncomfort.com/products/t6.htm
 

Dana

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To properly size the flat panel you'll need to run a room-by-room heat load calculation. Hire an engineer or RESNET rater for this, and NOT an HVAC installer. The 99% outside design temp in your area is about -2F, so my WAG estimate of your whole house heat load is still in the right range.

You'll notice in the Myson brochure that the radiator output is specified at a few different AWT (Average Water Temperature) points. With a hot water heater you'll be able to get better than 140F AWT, but depending on the model maybe not any higher than 160F. If you size the radiation in each room using the 140F AWT spec for the radiators it'll end up being more radiator, but it'll also be more comfortable. The ratio of heat load to radiator output needs to be roughly the same in each room on the zone to have reasonably close room-to-room temperatures.

There is not sufficient water mass in the panel radiators to suppress short cycling on a boiler without ridiculous oversizing factors on the radiators. If you use a boiler you would still need a buffer tank.

Designing a heating system around a hot water heater involves two pumps and a heat exchanger near the boiler. The heat exchanger isolates the potable water from the heating system water. When there is a call for heat a pump on the potable side (bronze or stainless, to keep it from corroding quickly) pulls hot water out of the tank into the heat exchanger and from the heat exchanger back into the tank. A the same time the circulation pump for the heating system starts up, pulling the heated system water out of the heat exchanger, sending it to/from the radiators. This does not require hard math from any competent hydronic heating designer, but not every boiler installer is comfortable designing these types of systems:

heatexchangeschem.jpg




An oil fired HW heater won't last 25 years the way a well-implemented cast iron boiler would, but they're quite a bit cheaper, and you'll make up for it in higher efficiency due to the fewer (but longer) burn cycles.


For more money you can do pretty much the same thing with a cast iron boiler and a buffering external tank. It'll last longer, but it's not clear that it would actually "pay". There are buffer tanks with potable coils suspended in the heating system water sometimes referred to as a "reverse indirect" that would be able to supply both the domestic hot water and the buffering thermal mass for the heating system:

Radiant.jpg


Building these "Rube Goldberd Contraptions" is only necessary due to the fact that the smallest burners are nearly 2x the output needed for heating the house, and running at a low average duty cycle. It's cheaper/easier to suppress the cycling with thermal mass (a tank of water), than installing insane amounts of radiator on each zone to balance with the boiler's output heat. Boilers don't have enough internal thermal mass to keep the number of burn cycles down when the (also low mass) radiation on any given zone is significantly undersized for the boiler output.

For the record, when I micro-zoned my own home I went the "reverse indirect" route, using a gas-fired low-mass tankless hot water heater as the "boiler" rather than installing enough radiation in each zone to balance with the minimum output of a modulating boiler. Gas fired modulating condensing boilers have improved their modulation ranges at the low end to the point where I could have gone that route if starting over today and been ~5-10% more energy efficient, but there's no point in getting rid of the reverse indirect at this point. When the tankless croaks I'll replace it with a small condensing boiler, but won't re-plumb the system.
 

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Instead of going the water heater route, check out the Energy Kinetics System 2000 website. Because your heat loss is less than the lowest reasonable firing rate for oil, the post purge feature of the system manager insures that all of the heat that's generated, with the exception of chimney loss, goes where it's needed without overheating any area. It also makes excellent DHW. Cold start, cool finish so there's no standby loss.

They are a direct to dealer manufacturer so you'd need a local dealer for the install but MA has a lot of them. Call the number on the website for names and locations.
 

Tom Sawyer

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I've been a system 2000 dealer for over thirty years. Believe me, you can't go wrong and you won't be disappointed, however, they are pricey. I also sell and install Biase and again, you can't go wrong. If you go the Biase route, make sure it comes with the ?Riello burner. Any 40 gallon indirect will work just fine. Buderus is goo and so is Viessmann but both are pretty expensive for what you get.
 

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Not knowing the reasons why electric/heat pump solutions are ruled out it's hard to say what the right thing to do is, but for a tight decently insulated house in balmy 03038 Derry NH, the heat pump solutions make a lot more financial sense on a lifecycle basis than any oil-burner, no matter how cheap or expensive or efficient the oil burner is.

Even at this year's electricity & oil pricing the marginal cost of better class heat pumps is much lower than oil, and when crude oil tops $80/bbl again it'll be back to the insanity pricing for #2 heating oil seen over the prior ~5 years. Some industry analysts are suggesting that's likely to happen before the 2017/2018 heating season, based on surging demand for oil in India and Africa making up for the more recently slowed demand ramp in China.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Derry isn't always all that balmy. It's been a few years but two to three weeks of 15 to 20 below will tax the hell out of anyones heat pump.
 

Dana

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A few years? Try a few millenia since Derry has seen a cold snap with negative double digit lows every night for a 2-3 week stretch!

Both Fujitsu & Mitsubishi have heat pumps that keep chugging along at temps cooler than -15F with a COP better than 1.5 even at those temps. (Even Gree has heat pumps currently under development that will have a fully specified output capacity at -21F.)

The 99.6% temperature bin in Derry is about -3F, the 99% design temp is in low positive digits territory. Designing to 0F (or even-5F) is more than enough.

Specifying a heating system to fully cover the coldest temperatures of the past 10,000 years is just silly, especially when it comes with a substantially higher seasonal average operating cost, such as an oil burner.

But since the original poster drew the line at" "As far as Electric goes, thats not an avenue we are willing to go down for various reasons that I wont go into right now.", we're stuck with figuring out the best-case/lowest-lifecycle-cost #2 oil solutions. For the modest loads of a 2500' house in Derry the water heater solution may not be the highest efficiency, but will probably come it at the lowest lifecycle cost unless #2 oil breaks $5/gal on the way up within 10 years. A Biasi B3 and a pretty-good indirect might be only slightly more expensive.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Folks living in NH are naturally wary of anything electric owing to our unreasonably high electric rates and no chance of them coming down in the foreseeable future. Three to five hundred dollar monthly residentialelectric bills are not uncommon. But the biggest issue people have with mini's is the emitters because they are not particularly pretty. They are a bit noisy although not as bad as many think. They work best in larger areas where coverage is easier to achieve and finding suitable wall space is often an issue. I also don't see rising oil prices on the horizon for quite awhile. The Saudis have pretty much determined to drive us out of the oil business.
 

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The Saudis won't have the pumping capacity to stay ahead of the increased demand in Africa & India for 10 years unless the Indians make good on their plan to make all light transport electric by 2030 (which they might).

In the nearer term the Saudis pretty much have reversed the production volume gains in the US & Canada, which also has an effect. T.Boone Pickens is one of several predicting much higher prices before 2018. The IEA (usually a pretty lousy prognosticator) is projecting $80/bbl crude by 2020. Nobody (outside of the recreational-maryjane states :) ) is predicting sub-$50 oil for another decade or more, or anywhere near the lifecycle of oil burning equipment.

Even at current oil & electricity pricing mini-splits is comparable heating with oil in NH. Net-metering of rooftop solar is also a viable option for hedging on future electricity pricing in NH. The only people with $500/month electric bills in NH are those heating with resistance heating, with state average pricing in the 18-19 cent/kwh range (compared to 20-21 cents in MA.)

In a full-gut rehab like this one there are plenty of options for right-sizing mini-splits, including ducted mini-splits if wall-worts are deemed objectionable.

85% efficiency combustion of $2 oil (maximizing by not counting the power used by the system, and assuming no distribution or standby losses) delivers 117,300 BTU of heat /gallon, or 58,650 BTU/$.

A COP of 3 (lowballing it, and all-in) seasonal average efficiency at 20 cents/kwh delivers 10,236 BTU/kwh or 51, 180 BTU/$ . By the time you factor in the distribution & standby losses of the oil burner plus the power used it's cheaper, especially at 2x+ oversizing on the oil system (which is unavoidable in this situtaion). Optimally sized ductless equipment in a Derry location delivers a seasonal average COP closer to 3.5.

Oil pricing has nowhere to go but up unless Africa follows India and several Euro zone countries in swearing off oil for transportation (not likely). All indications are that electricity can only go down, since the unsubsidized lifecycle cost of even rooftop PV solar is already well under the retail, and closing in on the wholesale cost of power, and utility-scale PV is already cost competitive with new conventional generation. PV will be the largest source of new generating capacity in the US for 2016, edging out natural gas and wind. The zero marginal cost of wind & PV lowers the overall wholesale price of electricity, and the presence of behind the meter PV lowers the overall peak grid loads, cutting into capacity factors on other generators, while taking a huge chunk out of the peak wholesale pricing.

Electricity consumption in New England has been flat to falling for the past decade, and there is plenty of reason to believe that trend will continue. The closure of the Vermont Yankee nuke did not affect the price of electricity measurably, but the impending closure of the Pilgrim plant in MA might have a measurable, if short term, effect. It'll be only a longer term issue if literally NONE of the transmission grid or gas pipeline infrastructure proposals in the ISO-NE grid region succeed, and all of the offshore wind projects currently being discussed (especially the Dansk Olie og Naturgas lease holding off MA) evaporate or get pushed off in time by more than a decade. If I had to guess, in the next 5-10 years, most of the pipeline proposals will fail though some will make it as will, some of the transmission projects to hook up New England to more Quebec &/or New Brunswick hydro capacity , and at least one major offshore wind project will be online before 2025. Any of those will result in stabler power pricing going forward, with the possible exception of pipeline capacity, if gas generated power becomes burdened by pricing carbon emissions. Over the lifecycle of heating equipment I expect the slow inflation adjusted 40 year deflationary electricity price trend to accelerate in New England, despite recent-years' price shocks due to wintertime pipeline/storage constraints for the gas-fired power generators.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Electricity might be falling in New England but certainly not in New Hampshire which has some of the highest rates in the nation. At any rate it's a moot point because the OP already said he doesn't want to rely on electricity so that leafs either gas or oil. If he has natural available and the cost if getting it to his house is not too high, then gas is certainly an option and for that matter, either the sys2000 or the Biase can be GW's fired.
 

Dana

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New Hampshire rates are lower than in Massachusetts, and the current high rates are in part due to an overreliance on natural gas for power without sufficient storage or pipeline capacity to support both the power generation & space heating/other peak loads to the gas grid. ANY of the infrastructure investments (including offshore wind) will result in downward price pressure on electricity pricing in New England. The recent run up in electricity pricing in the region was sudden, but not unexpected. Solutions to that high pricing are known, and in the works, with state governments in cooperative discussions about the best regional policy approaches to how the infrastructure upgrade pies get divided.
 

Tom Sawyer

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We've been hearing that for the past thirty years. Lol, those improvements in infrastructure will be paid for in higher rates. Nothing ever goes down.
 

Dana

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Electricity pricing has been declining pretty steadily for 50 years, measured in inflation adjusted dollars.

The large amounts of wind power going on the grid in Texas and in the upper midwest have lowered electricity pricing (to the point that maintaining and operating existing nuclear plants is becoming uneconomic.)

Electricity pricing in New England is down about 10% from recent-years' peaks, about 5.5% lower in just the past year in NH.
 

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i dont want to take op post attention, but my house is an old roughly 1000 sq. winter gets really bad. Someone mentioned electrical boiler can work. This hvac guy from home depot recommended navien with 80-100 BTU with my tank.

is it overkill?
 
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Dana

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Yes, an 80-100,000 BTU/hr boiler would be complete overkill for a 1000' house, unless it has single pane glass, no wall or attic insulation and is located in Fairbanks, AK.

To assess what really makes sense it helps to know your location (got a ZIP code?), since "... winter gets really bad..." gives no clues as to what the 99th percentile temperature bin would be, (also called the 99% outside design temperature) which is one critical piece of information to start with.

If you have been in the place for a heating season it's also possible to derive what the heat load is at any arbitrary outdoor temperature based on the amount of fuel it took to heat the place, using the existing heating equipment as a measuring instrument.

With the heat load numbers accurately estimated you can size the solution correctly, then there is the matter of what the local energy pricing is. In most locations natural gas would be substantially cheaper to run than an electric boiler, but in some locations an air source heat pump would work out favorably. In some places #2 oil would be 2-3x as expensive as electric boilers, in others electric boilers would be substantially cheaper than oil. In most locations propane would be more expensive than #2 oil. Since all utility markets are local, it's important to look up the local pricing (and pricing trends) when trying to come to a decision.

What is meant by "...with my tank..."- something like this, mayhaps? :)

Firing_M1A1_tank_in_Djibouti.jpg


or maybe one of these?

suncity-water-heater-005.jpg


...or was it one of these?

Alpine-Boiler-Install-w-HW-Close-Up.jpg
 
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