Here is what you wanted Valveman

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PumpMd

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A list of the brands of pumps with almost all of them having Franklin Motors in my pile of pumps. These our DIY pumps, other pump installers, it doesn't say what size tank they were using, and if these were found dead because of their Waterlogged tank.

Some people want to keep their pump but this was basically a years worth of pumps. Our area goes out as far as probably 10+ city's and 90% are Residential pump systems (whole lot of farmers in my area too)
 

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Reach4

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Attached is your data in a spreadsheet.

When you put a pump in, there will be some time since the date code. I arbitrarily chose 1 year. There is a time from when the pump failed and now. I arbitrarily chose 1 year. Those numbers are in row 1.

What did I find from your data? With those assumptions, the average age of the failed pumps was 21.44 years.

For ½ HP: For ¾ HP: For 1 HP: For 2 HP:
24.56 years 20.17 years 24.69years 15.25 years respectively.

I put the file into a zip file, because .xls was not an allowed file type for the site.
 

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Reach4

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average would come down a little more for warranty pumps and those Pentair pumps. We don't see many warranty pumps, maybe one or two a year on these small pumps. Franklin has good PMA skills.
I think you are saying that the pumps that got removed due to failure, but returned under warranty (5 years?) would not be in the listing.

In that case, I think you meant RMA rather than PMA.:)
 

PumpMd

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Yes. Bob came back and said he was wrong and it was Pump and Motor Assembly.
 
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PumpMd

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It's like Craigpump said "a properly installed pump system is one of the cheapest things you can buy in the long run"


what would your cost of water be for 21yrs?
 
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PumpMd

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next year I am going to mark them to show everyone how most of these pumps died because of a waterlogged or close to a waterlogged tank.
 
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Valveman

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Those are some pretty good numbers. Throw in a couple of warranties and it would probably bring the average down to 17 years or so. Add some larger pumps and the average will drop even further to 12-14 years. More samples like 500 or 5,000 instead of 50, especially from other areas of the country will get you even closer to the 7 year design life for all submersibles.

But eliminating everything except the ones your company installed will probably up the average greatly to maybe 25 years or so. You should be proud of the fact that the professionals in your company are skilled enough to make most pumps last 3 times the national average. This is not all that uncommon as many professionals know how to reduce the cycling and get the most out of the equipment they have available.

Keeping up with changes in the industry is important. Pump manufacturers make changes without really announcing it. One day their pump works fine with Dole valves. The next thing you know impellers are melting down because they changed to a "floating impeller", which is really just a dragging impeller. These are cheaper to produce, but create much more heat and don't last as long as impellers held up by the motor thrust bearing. Professionals would figure these things out before long and switch to a different brand that will last.

Most professional installers know how to reduce cycling as much as possible to make a pump system last. They will be insistent on a large pressure tank to extend the pump run time to at least 1 minute, and will highly recommend twice that size tank for 2 minutes of run time, as it would cycle the pump even less. They will install frost free hydrants that can flow enough water to keep the pump from cycling off, or advise sprinkler systems be matched to the pump size. A patient installer will train his/her customer how to use enough water to keep the pump from cycling, how to recognize the symptoms of a waterlogged tank, and how to re-charge the tank with air when needed.

Besides checking the air in the pressure tank occasionally, the only thing a homeowner can do to extend the life of his/her pump system, is to make sure to use enough flow to keep the pump from cycling for long term uses of water. Getting the flow correct for heat pumps and sprinkler systems may take a little professional tuning. But garden hose irrigation takes a little training. If you have a 10 GPM pump and you are using 9 GPM or less the pump will cycle, which is not good. But if you use more than 12 GPM or so, the pressure will be too low. So the homeowner must be trained not to use too much water, yet still enough to keep the pump from cycling. A pump system installed by a professional, maintained and used properly by a homeowner with a little training, may last 3+ times longer than those installed by less qualified persons and given no maintenance.

This proves that what some people call the "old traditional system" with a large pressure tank only, when professionally installed and properly maintained can last an average of maybe 21-25 years. Only time will tell if adding a CSV to reduce the cycling even more will further extend the life of systems like these. The oldest CSV systems are only 24 years old now. But some of those are accelerated test on heavily used systems where the pump previously lasted only 5 to 10 years. If these accelerated tests are of any significance, we should also see greatly extended life of average pump systems as well.

Regardless of whether a CSV extends the life of a pump system or not, it can solve several major problems. The CSV eliminates any need for homeowner water use training. It will make the pump's flow rate match the amount of water being used, instead of the homeowner having to be responsible to always run the proper amount of water to keep the pump happy. As I said earlier, using the right amount of water for long terms is the only thing a homeowner can do to increase the life of his/her pump system. The CSV eliminates everyone of this responsibility, as it will make the pump automatically match any amount of water being used. This also eliminates the need for professional tuning to match heat pumps and irrigation systems.

The CSV can also save the pump from being destroyed by waterlogged tank conditions. First it completely eliminates cycling for long term uses of water, so the tank is less likely to lose it's air charge as there is no repetitive cycling action of the bladder. But if the tank does lose some or all of it's air charge, the CSV will just keep the pump running continuously and happily for as long as you are in the shower or using water. Sure until you replace the tank the pump will come on and go off instantly when a faucet is opened or closed, but it won't machinegun on/off 400 times WHILE you take a shower, as it would without a CSV.

Check valves, pressure switches, start capacitors, relays, tank bladders, even the wire slapping around down the well all last longer when you reduce the number of times they are used or cycled. With professional installation and proper maintenance the old pressure tank only systems can last a long time. Adding a CSV to a system with a small or large tank allows you to use water anyway you want without damage to the pump. Since professionals doing everything they can to limit the number of pump cycles makes pumps last a long time, the CSV is just another tool that can be used to further reduce cycling, along with all the problems that go with.
 

PumpMd

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Most of those pump systems I have shown on here, have had under sized tanks on them with this pump life. I am not saying go undersize your tank, it's just what I see from people installing there own tanks and my uncle from using 20gal tanks(1/2hp-3/4hp "10gpm") and 33gal tanks(1hp "10gpm") but even on the 1.5-5hp I still see less than a 1min runtime on them most of the time. I am sure the numbers would go up on oversizing your tank. Tank size is determined by what gpm pump you have.

2nd Running at 9gpm on a 10gpm will keep the pump running because it can't build enough pressure against what is running around here on our size of motors.
 
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Valveman

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2nd if you are running 9gpm on a 10gpm pump with a big tank, it's going to take awhile before it shuts off because it still has to build up against what you are running.

Sure it will. It will take 10 minutes to fill a 10 gallon draw tank before the pump shuts off. But then the tank will drain at 9 GPM and start the hot motor back up in about a minute. A minute is not enough time for the internals of that motor to cool all the way down, and starting a hot motor is never good.

If they had a 7yr life span, then you would've see probably 200+ pumps but it's like I said "long term life, not short term with all that cycling". Do Preventive Maintenance and you can see 30+ easy on pump life.

That would be 30+ years AVERAGE, and your stretching it quite a bit. And that is IF you do preventive maintenance and never irrigate with the wrong amount of water. For every pump that last 40 years there is another that didn't last 40 days. For every pump that lasted 30 years there is another that only lasted 10. That is where the 20 year average comes from. And what determines which ones last 40 days and which ones last closer to 40 years depends on which one is cycled the most and which one the lest.

And are you saying that all pumps will last 30 years even if they are not professionally installed? If so then with your professional installation you should be able to give a 30 year GUARANTEE. If you had any confidence they would last 30 years you would offer maybe a 20 year guarantee, or at least 10 years, right? Just file those pressure switch points, continue adding more air to pressure tanks, fixing check valves, replacing capacitors, and keep telling yourself that cycling isn't the cause of all pump problems. Other people are here on this forum because THEIR pumps didn't last 40 years and they need some help figuring out why and how to fix it. Your denial that they even have a problem isn't helping water to keep dependably coming out of their faucets. This forum is not for people who's pumps last 40 years, but there are not many of those.
 

Valveman

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95% of pump systems problems boils back to the Precharge in your tank.

The pre-charge in the tank is only important because it reduces the speed and number of on/off cycles. And since maintaining the pre-charge in the tank is a never ending maintenance issue according to you, a CSV is just another way to guarantee the pump doesn't cycle, that is regardless of the pre-charge in the tank. Because anyway you can reduce the number of cycles is important, or maintaining the pre-charge in the tank wouldn't make any difference.

If I were your customer and you were trying to talk me out of a CSV, I would have no problem agreeing to your "let it cycle attitude" if you gave me a 20 year guarantee. Otherwise I would want the CSV to guarantee my pump would not be cycled to death in an average of 21 years, because I am always the low one that keeps the average down.
 
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