I hired a license contractor. I got an unlicensed tech. He condemned the unit!

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CubGirl

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I need advice from professionals. On Jan 27, I realized my gas pack was not operating. No fan, nothing. I looked for a reputable contractor and called one in Huntsville AL. This is a gas pack unit for a commercial/residential building for a small business. The unit services one floor...

The technician came and I watched him from the upstairs window. He took off the top of the unit, looked around a bit and after about 5 or 10 minutes max, he came to the door and told me the heat exchanger had a hole, the unit was dangerous and pumping CO in the house. He showed me the pictures of the exchanger that he took on his cell phone, but I did not see the exchanger personally (big mistake). He said he probably could not find a replacement exchanger (it's a 1999 Frigidaire 3.5 T natural) and if he was lucky enough to find a heat exchanger, it would cost $3800 to repair. He said I was lucky the unit didn't kill anyone because of CO but he didn't test for CO. He never even started the unit. He gave me a quote for a new Trane for $12K. I got sticker shock and he said he had an Amana for $6900. I said I was not ready to buy today and gave him my AmEx card. I signed a hand held device. I was given no paperwork.

So I started looking around and found a brand new 3.5T Goodman on ebay for $2100, delivered. I realized I had nothing in writing from the contractor, whatsoever. I called and told them I needed the quote in writing. I thought with a written quote, I'd have specs to compare when buying a unit on my own. I received a one line quote from the company: Qty: 1; 1G4A; $6515.00. That's it. No mention of heat or cool BTU's, no mention of make or model number, no mention of tonnage, no mention of warranty. Nothing. I could not believe how unprofessional this was. I requested a REAL quote and got something from the office manager.

Anyway, I wanted to find someone to install a new unit and found a guy on Craig's list (yes he's licensed, I looked him up). His ad said if someone tells you your unit is not repairable to call him. I did and he came out the next day. He found that several of the power connectors were unplugged, even the high voltage one, which was tucked under another component as if someone were trying to hide it. He found a short in the PCB and worked around it to test the unit. He fired it right up. We ran it for over 45 minutes. There was no flame rollout. I examined the heat exchanger personally and saw no holes. The new guy had a CO meter and with the unit running we tested every register in the house. All readings were 0.0. He installed a new PCB and the total for the hour and a half he was there was $330. It's been running fine ever since.

I asked the first company to come back and show where they found the holes. I began to think the pictures I was shown on the phone were not of my heat exchanger. I also heard that the heat exchanger/carbon monoxide/new unit is a common HVAC scam. I asked the 1st contractor if their guy had pulled a bunch of my connectors. He said yes, that "by law, he's required to disable the unit." I looked up IFGC and saw at 108.7.1 that "code officials" can condemn a unit that is hazardous but they must provide a notice in writing. If the code official considers the unit an immediate danger to life or property, they can disconnect it with no notice but must provide one later. I had trouble getting the guys to come to show me the hole and after 5 days of emails & phone calls, I lost my patience with them. I also told them it was unprofessional to disconnect internal power connectors and they had no authority to disconnect my unit but even if they had the authority, they should have cut the disconnect and shut off the gas valve. I think the technician may have damaged the PCB when he pulled connectors.

I've been arguing with the company all day and tonight, I found out the technician who red tagged the unit is not licensed in the state of Alabama. I could not believe it. This guy comes out, performs no tests, condemns my unit and he is not licensed?? He disables the unit in the middle of winter (contrary to IFGC code) and he's not licensed?

I've squawked so loud tonight they said they'd refund my $79.00 but I'm furious at them. I wasted a lot of time looking for units and talking to other contractors. I thought my gas pack was a killing machine. I think if a company is going to disable my unit, the guy that does it should at least be licensed. I believe they disabled my unit to put pressure on me to buy a new one. It's illegal and unethical.

What do you guys think? Am I being a PITA or is this a legitimate concern?
 

Cacher_Chick

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You have a legitimate concern, but it is a "he said, she said" situation, which in the end will get you nowhere. File a complaint with the BBB if it makes you feel better, and then get on with your life.

The world holds plenty of people who do not have your best interests in mind. If you choose to battle each one of them, your are not going to get much enjoyment in your life.
 

CubGirl

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No, I have an email saying they pulled connectors rather than disconnecting the HVAC at it's disconnect. Also, they admitted the tech is not licensed. They said in Alabama he doesn't need one. Sad thing is, they're right... in Alabama an "employee who works 30 hours a week" does not need to have a license. I talked to the gas & mechanical inspector. He said code allows a service company to shut off the unit's disconnect. If they wanted the gas turned off at the unit, the tech should've called the city. I looked up the codes this city adopted. IFGC and IMC both have 108.7.1 that allows only code officials to condemn units. But he's an old timer and I didn't push this point.

My point is this: I'm an engineer and female but guys don't realize that and I've had other guys try to scam me. I can't believe I paid these guys anything before catching their scam. The cracked heat exchanger/carbon monoxide/need new unit is a MAJOR SCAM that HVAC companies are pulling on a lot of people. I want people to know about this scam and I would like to get the city to enforce the code as it is written: ONLY a code official can condemn a unit. Not an unlicensed service tech who's working on commission and trying to make a sale. It's wrong for a guy like that to pull some poor guy's unit (by pulling and hiding internal power connectors, not cutting the disconnect). It's wrong.

So this is not about my enjoyment of life. I happen think it's worthwhile to battle unscrupulous companies... if I said or did nothing when I see a crook ripping people off using scare tactics, I'd feel worse.
 

Dana

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It sounds like a low-life type of scam being run by some part-time HVAC techs. It's hard to say how prevalent that sort of behavior is, but I can't think of any similar situations arising in my neighborhood. The HVAC techs here will work overtime to convince you to buy 3x as much heating/cooling capacity as you really need, but out & out lying about the condition of the equipment and going so far as to disable the equipment has to be pretty rare. YMMV.

Buy a CO detector- they're cheap, and they work, and the package unit probably isn't the only potential source. Odds that the heating HX on a 16-17 year old package unit in a low- heating load climate has been breached with holes are low but not impossible. At age 30+ the odds go up.

A 3.5 tonner is enough cooling capacity to handle a fairly big house in AL and may be sufficiently oversized for your loads to be an efficiency &/or comfort problem during lower-load high humidity days. It's probably oversized for heating as well. If you're planning to live there for more than a couple of years it's worth trying to figure out ahead of time what the replacement is going to be rather than to do a last-minute panic buy when the thing finally craps out. If it's 3x oversized it might be worth retiring it early with more appropriate, cheaper and higher comfort equipment. How much conditioned space is it serving? Are the ducts in a vented crawlspace under the house, an attic, outside, or inside conditioned space?
 

CubGirl

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The unit is running nicely right now so I'm not thinking about replacing it... but i thought rule of thumb was 600 - 800 sq ft per ton. I have around 2000 sq ft this unit services... 2000/3.5 = 572.5 so it's not too far off. Again not a J calc but I'm ok with the unit as it now stands... Agree with detector. Trying to determine if I want an alarm or a detector.

What I experienced is a pretty big scam if you Google it... https://www.google.com/webhp?source...+exchanger"+"carbon+monoxide"+"new+unit"+scam

I hate crooks!
 

Dana

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Crooks are everywhere- guess it's part of the human genome in some environment-factors sensitive way. Culture has a large influence.

Rule of thumb are for hacks, not engineers. Rules of thumb used by HVAC contractors always oversize, and reliably so, eliminating any chance of getting the call-back from an irate sweaty customer. The 600 square feet per ton reliably oversizes systems even at 1960s & 1970s levels of air tightness and insulation, in houses with single pane or high-gain clear-glass double-pane windows. If you have low-E windows, have at least R25 in the attic and not a huge expanse of "sunset view" west facing glass your loads won't be anywhere near a ton per 600', or even a ton per 800'.

Most decent code-min houses now days come around 1000' per ton with a Manual-J, more than 1000' for any thing better than code. Take it from Allison Bailes, working in the Atlanta, GA area who does load calculations and fixes oversizing and comfort problems on a regular basis:

"So, when I get a Manual J, I find the capacity and the conditioned floor area and calculate that number. I find out what the square feet per ton is for the house. If this is supposed to be an ENERGY STAR home, it shouldn't be 600 sf/ton. It should be more like 1000 sf/ton or higher. That's my rule of thumb."

(Emphasis mine.)

A 2 ton 2 or 3 head modulating multi-split would probably heat and cool the place more comfortably and cheaply than the current package unit, and if recent history is any guide, would come in at an installed price less than $8K at New England type labor rates in competitive bidding. (It's probably cheaper in AL.) There's no point in going there as long as the package unit is still in good shape, which it probably will be for at least another 5-10 years. But when that day comes it's better for cost, comfort, and efficiency to right-size it.
 

CubGirl

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thanks for calling me a hack. interesting you say rule of thumbs is for hacks, and then quote a rule of thumb for 1000 sq ft per ton.

listen, i'm not defining specs for a new system. this was installed when i bought the property in 2007. i just did a quick analysis when I had a problem and decided a 3.5T gas pack was adequate.

of course if i were going to spec out a new system i'd insist on a manual j. BTW: i'm not going to yank out a perfectly working system due to some analysis that would never have been done until some HVAC guy tried to rip me off.

FYI: the thieves are returning my $$. I called the code officials (inspectors) who told me the company was not allowed to do what they did. I gave them the information and they called them. COMPANIES TRYING TO SELL HVAC EQ SHOULD NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DISABLE A UNIT. the city said the most they should have done is pull the disconnect and turned off the valve. they agreed with me that if they thought it was going to "kill people" they should have called the city to have it condemned.

why didn't they want to do that? because more knowledgable eyes would be on the unit then...

so this issue is closed but everyone be warned: there is an HVAC scam going on and keep alert if you hear the words "cracked heat exchanger", "carbon monoxide", "death trap", "new unit". It doesn't mean this is not the case... it means you must scrutinize the claims before forking over thousands of dollars!
 

Dana

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I was not calling you a hack. The point was that someone who has the skills of an engineer doesn't need to fall into the same rule-of-thumb trap that hacks typically use, that using the rules of thumb approach has both comfort & cost consequences. The thing WILL eventually fail, and knowing ahead of time what it actually needs to be optimal is useful to already have on file. It's just a suggestion.

I don't use a 1000'/ton rule of thumb, but that is a more typical ratio when you actually run the Manual-J (with numerous exceptions on both sides of that median.) It's rare to have it actually come in at a ton per 600', but common to find existing systems in that range (or an even higher ratio.)

For example, the idiot who installed the central air on my current house (prior to my occupancy) put a 5-ton system on a house with a design cooling load of about 12,000-13,000 BTU/hr. This ~2400' house has a modest window/floor area ratio, 2' roof overhangs that shade the south windows completely by 10AM in July, a 1% design temp of 83F, and is completely shaded by a forested hill by 2PM. That's load of about a ton per 2000', but what was installed is about a ton per 500'. The system runs rarely, and at an insufficient duty cycle to manage the latent loads.

Good on-ya to follow up with the code folks about the unscrupulous contractors using the illegal practices! Sometimes that's enough to cause them to change their behavior, at least for awhile.
 

WorthFlorida

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Education is never cheap. The sad thing is the companies or people that try to pull scams never realize that they can make more money by being honest. The first tech got $79 (and was refunded) then the guy who fixed it made $330. I'm sure when the time comes to replace the unit, you'll probably call the man who fixed it up and got it right.

For sizing with today's high efficiency models in most cases you might be able to down size a 1/4 ton or 1/2 depending how old the original unit is. It used to be 1/2 ton for every 500 sq ft but that is when AC units where SEER 10 or worse. Check with your power company. Many of them offer energy audits for free. They'll come up with a list of suggestions for getting your home more efficient. A lot of it is the obvious like window tinting, improved insulation, etc. It will at least give you a baseline to start with. I looked it up, assuming you have Alabama Power. http://www.alabamapower.com/residential/save-money-energy/energy-checkup.asp
 

WorthFlorida

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Reach4

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Education is never cheap. The sad thing is the companies or people that try to pull scams never realize that they can make more money by being honest. The first tech got $79 (and was refunded) then the guy who fixed it made $330.
Unfortunately the next person the scammers pull that on may give them $7900.
 

hj

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Holland Furnace Company was pulling that scam back in the 50s. They would offer a "free" inspection, then say the unit was cracked and they were not allowed to put it back together, but they had a replacment unit on the truck and could install it for $x,xxx.xx and the customer would have heat again in a few hours rather than days in the middle of Winter.
 

WorthFlorida

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About 15 years ago we had a company in Palm Beach County doing something similar for AC units. Offered cheap inspections and then claim they need a new unit. Too many times and then they tried it on the wrong retired person. The Newspaper was called, sheriffs office called, etc. There were arrest made and they were shut down.
 
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There are scammers in every industry, and while scamming be lucrative to the scammer, they are always on the run. They are in constant fear of being shut down, you can use this against them.

I understand you may be freezing in the winter or baking in the summer, the first thing a homeowner needs to do is not panic. We didn't have hvac 150 years ago, and people survived wrapped with quilts and lemon tea. Set up an electric heater in the smallest bedroom and have the family bunk up in there as you deal with your hvac woes.

You may have that urge to use internet to find a "contractor", but try your own neighbors first. Neighbors you do not know nor have never formally met, now is a good time to break the ice (no pun intended). A few minutes of door knocking can give you a wealth of leads from trusted contractors that have worked on your block. You'd be surprised how some may offer to shelter your family.

When you call a contractor, ask as many questions as you must for them to convince you that they won't scam you. What's their address? What is their legal name and business number, and since when has it been registered? How many employees do they have? Is this a one man show? What are their certifications and licenses? Are they authorized by any manufacturers? What is the name of the tech they will send to your home? Be direct and tell them you are afraid of being scammed, just to see if it will make them stutter or give you a straight answer. When a scammer feels you are breathing down their necks, they will abandon you as a victim.

Ask the contractor what fees are associated for your visit, as you must agree to them before they come, as well as agree to their accepted payment methods. Cash is fine as long as they can provide a real receipt.

When the contractor shows up to your door, ask them to show you some identification, and write their full name down. A legit contractor out to make a honest living will have no problem giving you their full name, afterall, the government knows who they already are as a taxpayer. Take pictures of their vehicle, paying attention to any legible print on the vehicle like business names and phone numbers, and the vehicle license plate.

You're about to have a stranger work on equipment you own that is worth thousands or more. Supervise it all the way. Scammers often try to make excuses how it is unsafe for you to be with them. It's your house, it's never illegal for you to be anywhere on your own property. A confident contractor will never have a problem working supervised. Take pictures of your unit as it is being dismantled and inspected. Again, you don't need permission to take pics of a machine you own on your property.

If the unit is not immediately repairable, the contractor MUST and CAN put it back together. Make this communication clear before they open your unit. A machine left naked in pieces is just a way to corner the homeowner into being SOL to pay up.

If you are not ready to allow a repair, either because parts are not on the truck or you still need more opinions, ask for a written quote. Have the contractor explain the quote in detail, you may write down what they tell you. Don't fall for the "one time offer, it's now or never" deal. A good contractor will be happy to come back once you have approved their repair. Your business is their bread and butter.

There are other ways to find contractors. Instead of finding them directly, work from the other end of the supply chain from the retailer or manufacturer.

Many of the big box stores will have their own fleet of contractors. While they do cost premium, they do offer security in being responsible for your satisfaction, which is why so many people deal with them. You can also take advantage of their financing.

If you have a favorite manufacturer, call them to recommend a local authorized dealer and installer. Manufacturers have an extensive sales channel network and work hard to give their dealers legit business.

Remember, scammers are always on the run and don't want to get caught. So the more uncomfortable you make them feel, the quicker they will give up and run away. Having a cold house for another day is a lot better than being bilked for thousands. Better $100 for a good family meal at a Friendly's vs. thousands flushed away (no pun intended).
Unlicensed_contractor_arrested_in_Phoeni_3452620000_24323835_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
 

Dana

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Education is never cheap. The sad thing is the companies or people that try to pull scams never realize that they can make more money by being honest. The first tech got $79 (and was refunded) then the guy who fixed it made $330. I'm sure when the time comes to replace the unit, you'll probably call the man who fixed it up and got it right.

For sizing with today's high efficiency models in most cases you might be able to down size a 1/4 ton or 1/2 depending how old the original unit is. It used to be 1/2 ton for every 500 sq ft but that is when AC units where SEER 10 or worse. Check with your power company. Many of them offer energy audits for free. They'll come up with a list of suggestions for getting your home more efficient. A lot of it is the obvious like window tinting, improved insulation, etc. It will at least give you a baseline to start with. I looked it up, assuming you have Alabama Power. http://www.alabamapower.com/residential/save-money-energy/energy-checkup.asp

It's more about the thermal efficiency of the house than it is the heat pump efficiency of the AC. The tonnage is a raw output number, unaffected by the efficiency of the unit. A 14+ SEER 3-ton just uses a lot less power to deliver that cooling than an old school 8-ish SEER 3-tonbeast of yore, but the amount of cooling is the same.

A ton per 500' is enough compressor to reliably cool an un-insulated tar paper shack with clear glass single panes and a corrugated roof. Most currnet housing is better than that.
 
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