Submersible well pump shutting off during cycle

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Roveer

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My 18yo 2 wire submersible well pump has been shutting off during its run cycle leaving us with weak pressure and on occasions no pressure.

Some additional information: pressure tank set at 35lbs. pressure switch is 40-60. Have had pressure tank at 38lbs but someone suggested dropping it to 35 which I did last night.

Best way to describe the problem.

I drained down my system so I could drop pressure in tank from 38lbs to 35lbs as a diagnostic. Closed everything up and turned the pump back on. So I had to go from 0 to 60lbs. Pump running (I have a little rattle sound in my T so I can tell when the pump is running.

Builds to 40 lbs and suddenly cuts out. Not pressure switch, but pump. Assuming overheating? After 1-2 minutes it comes back on and pumps to around 48lbs then quits again. Comes on again and goes to 58 then quits. Comes back on and makes 60 and the pressure switch shuts it off.

2 wire pump so no control box.

Pump done?
Wiring (bad splice could give low voltage/amperage) causing pump to struggle & overheat? I have one connection right at the well head which I'm going to check tomorrow.

Any other suggestions before I call the well guy for a costly pump replacement?

Thanks,

Roveer
 

Craigpump

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Sounds just like the job I have tomorrow.

The pump is most likely done, but need to check with an Amprobe to be sure.
 

Valveman

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Yeah like Craigpump said. The overload in the motor is tripping out. It usually takes a minute or two to automatically reset and turn the pump back on. 18 years is pretty good for how many times that pump has probably cycled on and off. The fewer times a pump cycles on/off the longer it will last. Once the pump has cycled enough all the smoke leaks out of the motor, and you can never put the smoke back in. :)
 

Roveer

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I will amp probe the pump. Is there a number that tells me its cooked? 2-3 amps ok, 6-8 means bad? i'm also going to check and make sure it's getting a full 240 volts. Possible the pressure switch isn't sending the power on both legs but I'm reconciled to the fact that I'm going to need a new pump.
 

Roveer

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I think I have to call it...

I had my electrician stop by to make sure all of my wiring/breakers were in order.

2 Observations:

1. He checked continuity on the wires leading out to the pump. He found they were closed. Said that is not supposed to be.

2. He amp probed both 120 lines off the breaker and found them both pulling 18 amps, 21+ at startup.

I'm led to believe these two things indicate its time to change the pump.

Comments? Thanks.

Roveer
 

Valveman

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I think I have to call it...

I had my electrician stop by to make sure all of my wiring/breakers were in order.

2 Observations:

1. He checked continuity on the wires leading out to the pump. He found they were closed. Said that is not supposed to be.

2. He amp probed both 120 lines off the breaker and found them both pulling 18 amps, 21+ at startup.

I'm led to believe these two things indicate its time to change the pump.

Comments? Thanks.

Roveer


Well you should have continuity (closed) between the two motor wires going down. They should read 2.2 to 5.0 ohms depending on the size of the motor. But you should not have any continuity (open) between the motor wires and ground.

And you could have 120 volts on both incoming lines and still not have 240 volts going to the pump. Need to check voltage between the incoming wires to see if you have 240V.

I am still not sure. 18 to 21 amps is high, but could be because you only have 120 volts instead of 240 volts to the motor. If you have 240 volts going to the motor and it pulls 18+ amps, the motor is toast.
 

Roveer

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Aahh.. This is why I ask questions... I wasn't sure about the continuity and I will ohm read it tonight with my own equipment (after I hit the breaker off of course).

on the pressure switch he put his meter across both wires going to the pump and got 230v something (I believe). I'll check again tonight.

2 other things... I have a single gang all weather box on the well head that might contain a splice. I'm going to check that splice to make sure there are good connections to the pump. I've had a number of instances in this house over the years where corrosion under a wire nut has lead to something not working right. The box is also buried half way up in leaves. If it is leaking that could effect things. The well has never thrown the breaker, but I figure its worth looking at. If that connection is good, then I have to admit defeat that the pump is probably gone.

One final thing. I have a backflow between the incoming poly and my tank tee. Is it possible that the backflow has gone bad and is causing resistance against the pump and causing it to overheat? I've heard of that happening before as well.

These are the final 2 things I can think of before I throw in the towel and call the well guy.

Thanks,

Roveer
 

Reach4

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Aahh.. This is why I ask questions... I wasn't sure about the continuity and I will ohm read it tonight with my own equipment (after I hit the breaker off of course).
Not everybody looking at resistance will distinguish between 5 ohms and a short. I think you would have been better off with a pump person rather than an electrician. But I can see the logic of having the electrician out.

The fact that the current was the same in both legs makes me think that a short is unlikely.

You have done your due diligence, and since craigpump and valveman think you probably have a failing pump, I would go with that.

You could take a look at the voltage between the terminals on the pressure switch while the pump is running. I am not sure what that would tell you, but it is easy. If you drop more than 5% vs the voltage when the pump is off, that will be interesting.
 

Roveer

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The electrician was a freebe. He works for us on other jobs and just stopped by to give it a look. I'll check the voltage running vs idle and report back.

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Valveman

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Aahh.. This is why I ask questions... I wasn't sure about the continuity and I will ohm read it tonight with my own equipment (after I hit the breaker off of course).

on the pressure switch he put his meter across both wires going to the pump and got 230v something (I believe). I'll check again tonight.

If he got 230 volts there and the amps are 18 then your pump is shot.

2 other things... I have a single gang all weather box on the well head that might contain a splice. I'm going to check that splice to make sure there are good connections to the pump. I've had a number of instances in this house over the years where corrosion under a wire nut has lead to something not working right. The box is also buried half way up in leaves. If it is leaking that could effect things. The well has never thrown the breaker, but I figure its worth looking at. If that connection is good, then I have to admit defeat that the pump is probably gone.

Always check the motor after the last connection. It could very well be that splice in the leaves that is causing a short.

One final thing. I have a backflow between the incoming poly and my tank tee. Is it possible that the backflow has gone bad and is causing resistance against the pump and causing it to overheat? I've heard of that happening before as well.

Possible but not likely. It only has to let through about 1/2 a GPM to keep from overheating the motor. If you get any pressure and flow after the check valve, the check valve is not stuck closed.

These are the final 2 things I can think of before I throw in the towel and call the well guy.

Thanks,

Roveer
 

Roveer

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Well then my last chance is to check that splice (if it actually exists inside the box) if I don't find any trouble there, then I've done all I can and will call the well guy for the big show.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions and troubleshooting. I'll close the loop once I've made the final determination.

Roveer
 

Reach4

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Well then my last chance is to check that splice (if it actually exists inside the box) if I don't find any trouble there, then I've done all I can and will call the well guy for the big show.
Can you imagine a splice problem that would cause your symptom? I don't think so.
 

Roveer

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So today I checked the splice at the box on the well head. The wires were untwisted under heavily corroded wire nuts. Cleaned it all up but it did not stop the pump from shutting off so I've called the well guy. They will be here tomorrow. Had to check everything I possibly could before going for the expensive route but nothing else proved to be the problem. Pump was probably 15 years old.

Will report back if anything interesting arises.

Thanks again to all those who contributed.

Roveer
 

Reach4

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Take pictures. Stay out of the way. If he tells you things about your well, take notes.

Photograph the waterline mark on the pipes and you can tell what your actual water depth is. If your drop pipe is galvanized, you probably want that changed to PVC. Take a good picture of the pitless adapter, which will be at the top of the highest drop pipe. The well guy suggested changing my PVC couplers to stainless, and I said yes. I am glad, but it may be overkill. It has been pointed out that good PVC couplers are very strong and suitable, as long as the installer does not over-tighten.

If you wanted to have a 25 ft or longer tarp, maybe you could get him to lay the pipes on that. Otherwise expect they will lay on the ground.

Plan to sanitize your system when the weather is good. Expect sediment to come out for a while after the work, and while the well guy will run the water for a while to clear things up, I would run some more out of a hose to the yard after he is done.

If the well guy is not the same as the last guy, he may come in and cover up the first guy's sticker with his own.
 

Roveer

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OK, guys came and changed the pump. Changed the poly out to PVC. Used PVC fittings between the sections. Pitless adapter was in good shape so he used it. New pump. They ohm read the old pump before they pulled it and told me it was cooked. I've got a hose on the Tee valve trying to get out the discoloration. Only open 1/4 of the way. Once its clean I'll open up the house again. So hopefully this saga has come to an end.
 

Reach4

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Glad it is working. Since you already had poly, I think it would have been better if you had had a well person who could properly handle poly.
 

Valveman

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OK, guys came and changed the pump. Changed the poly out to PVC. Used PVC fittings between the sections. Pitless adapter was in good shape so he used it. New pump. They ohm read the old pump before they pulled it and told me it was cooked. I've got a hose on the Tee valve trying to get out the discoloration. Only open 1/4 of the way. Once its clean I'll open up the house again. So hopefully this saga has come to an end.

I think you may have to pump the well a little harder to clean it up.

That is the typical way cycling on and off destroys pumps. You got 18 years cycling the pump like that, which isn't too bad. But if you reduce the number of cycles, you will probably get a longer life from the pump.
 

Craigpump

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The PROPER way to handle poly that's been used downhole is to cut it in into easily handled pieces and throw it away then install sch80 or sch120 pvc.

Unfortunately, there's too many guys who won't spend the money on a hoist truck and have their customers convinced that poly is suitable for downhole use....
 

Roveer

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A-men...

I have a neat pile of 3 foot poly pieces waiting for disposal. They offered to take away, but I have dumpsters at my job sites and I can easily dispose the poly. They installed SCH80. I was happy with that after asking a few questions (cable stays, slapping poly etc). At 200' the poly was a bear. Even I chipped in. We decided to pull it and not use the boom. They even had the pully that you throw on the wellhead. With the boom truck and the sch80 it was as easy as it comes. They told me they just set up a new boom truck 100k+. Tools of the trade come at great expense.

Coincidentally. I paid less today ($1,760.00), replaced the downhole with PVC, replaced the wire downhole than I did 15 years ago for just a pump (1,800 bucks). I'm not complaining.

During my conversation with the owner when I initially called, it turns out he worked with one of my uncles many years earlier. The men who came to do the job were his grandsons. The company I work for is family owned so I can make a real connection with that.

When I called the owner today, He was almost shocked when he realized that my call was to thank him and let him know that his grandsons had done a good job and left everything working and that I was very satisfied with the work. He said he only gets calls when there's a problem. It's all too often that we in the trades (I build single family custom homes), only hear when something is wrong and never get any praise. I was more than happy with all the work that was done. I think the guys were a little shocked when I pulled out the chainsaw to get a small tree out of the way of the boom... Nothing wrong with chipping in and working as a team.

Roveer
 
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