At Wits end with water system

[deereguy]

Our water system which has been performing well for 36 years has failed. This system 1/3 hp submersible pump producing 1 to 2 gpm died and was recently replaced a month ago with a 1/2 hp 3 wire w/controller (The 1/3 hp pump no longer available). The new 1/2 hp pump plus 2 additional controllers, also failed after a couple of weeks. Suspect was Leaks in the water line and insufficient electrical wire size to run the new 1/2 hp pump.

I realize the following is a bid much for a forum to respond to, but if you would care to respond, your input and response would be valued and appreciated.

Question to the forum: Since, at a minimum, I'm looking at replacing the electrical wire and water line and pump. Any suggestions on what smart replacement system would look like? See Background Info below

Option (1) Somewhat duplicate the original system: Since we would like to have both wells functional, one new 230V 1/2 hp pump, wire, 1" poly line and float. Possibly with the addition of dry well safety switch.

Option (2) Upgrade to a 3 phase system with all the bells and whistles. Local company described it to me. Nice people. But, quite frankly, I could hardly understand what they were talking about. They thought it would be the way to go. While we didn't discuss pricing, I'm confident they thought I was made out of money which we just get by. They said they would provide me with a quote but I haven't seen it. I'm 72 and computers stuff is not my strong suit.

Background: 36 Years ago my wife and I installed a water system on the rural homestead that recently failed. The system was simple. It's comprised of a 1/3 hp 2 wire 120v submersible pump, float switch and 1000 gallon tank.
*The well is 35' feet deep with the pump at 28' producing 1 to 2 gpm. The well free flowed via 3/4 pipe 1400' with no restriction other than the pipe itself. Water level is 4 to 5 feet. Lift to the top of the tank is 75'.
*The tank is located on a hill above the house. Water is gravity fed to our house and the kids have booster pumps at their homes.
*The well is a 6" casing 1400 feet from the the storage tank and house.
* 120 volt electricity provided to the well is 1300' (2wire #6 al)

Over the years 2 of our children built houses on the place. So the well has been providing water for 3 houses and gardens. Output of the well was 1 to 2 gallons a minute. A second well 230V was drilled 10 years ago 100' from the existing well required by the county for a new home on the property but never hooked up until last week. Surprising, the 230v pump never used but installed 10 years ago works. And is providing emergency water via a generator and old waterline. rick 360-545-2712

 

[Reach4]

Most people don't have 3 phase power available from the power company. If the company is quoting a device that produces its own 3-phase power with an electronic box, that is more stuff that can fail. I would duplicate what you have within limits.

How far down is your water? Was the 1 to 2 GPM number based on what the well could keep up with, or with what the pump could do? If the well might run dry, I would add a device to shut down the well for a while if the pump runs dry.

You should not have to replace the buried #6 aluminum wire to go 240 (230) volts. A 230 volt 1/2 HP pump should draw less current than a 115 volt 1/3 HP pump.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Craigpump]

I don't like aluminum wiring..... but if it's in good condition with no shorts to ground it should carry the amp load required by the 230v 1/2hp pump.

I'm not a big fan of 3 phase or VFD systems, yes they work but I'm not completely sold on the durability of the drive and if you put a pencil to the numbers, you'll find they aren't any less expensive than a conventional submersible.

 

[deereguy]

Most people don't have 3 phase power available from the power company. If the company is quoting a device that produces its own 3-phase power with an electronic box, that is more stuff that can fail. I would duplicate what you have within limits.

How far down is your water? Was the 1 to 2 GPM number based on what the well could keep up with, or with what the pump could do? If the well might run dry, I would add a device to shut down the well for a while if the pump runs dry.

You should not have to replace the buried #6 aluminum wire to go 240 (230) volts. A 230 volt 1/2 HP pump should draw less current than a 115 volt 1/3 HP pump.

Great input: The water table is 4 to 5 feet Late Summer goes down to 6 to 8 feet. Yes, adding a shut down makes sense to me. The #6 aluminum is only 2 conductor. Has to be 3 conductor for 240V Right.

 

[deereguy]

I don't like aluminum wiring..... but if it's in good condition with no shorts to ground it should carry the amp load required by the 230v 1/2hp pump.

I'm not a big fan of 3 phase or VFD systems, yes they work but I'm not completely sold on the durability of the drive and if you put a pencil to the numbers, you'll find they aren't any less expensive than a conventional submersible.

Craigpump: Thanks for the input. I agree with you about the aluminum wire. But, it's only two single conductors. 40 years ago it was all we could afford. rick

Great input: The water table is 4 to 5 feet Late Summer goes down to 6 to 8 feet. Yes, adding a shut down makes sense to me. The #6 aluminum is only 2 conductor. Has to be 3 conductor for 240V Right.

Ok, just thinking...... Is it possible to change my 2 wire 120V to 2 wire 240V (I have 240V in the panel) Easy to do. Change one leg to the other 120V and ground the casing??? I'm sure it's not code but might work in a pinch. rick

 

[deereguy]

Craigpump: Thanks for the input. I agree with you about the aluminum wire. But, it's only two single conductors. 40 years ago it was all we could afford. rick


Ok, just thinking...... Is it possible to change my 2 wire 120V to 2 wire 240V (I have 240V in the panel) Easy to do. Change one leg to the other 120V and ground the casing??? I'm sure it's not code but might work in a pinch. rick

 

[Craigpump]

No, you don't need 3 conductor for a 2 wire 230v to run, but to be code compliant you need a third conductor to ground the system.

No, you can't rewire the panel and get the 120v pump to run on 230v, you would have to swap the motor.

The amp draw for the 230v pump will be about 50% of a 115v pump

 

[Valveman]

1/3 and 1/2 HP motors were nearly always the same. They just printed 1/2HP on one and 1/3HP on the other. For simplifying inventory they now just mark them all 1/2HP. But they still make 1/3HP pump ends. Like in the Grundfos they make a 7S05-8 and a 7S05-11. While both show to require a 1/2HP motor, the 7S05-8 is just a 1/3HP pump. Even when equipped with a 1/2HP motor it will only draw a 1/3HP load. So the wire size should not need to be larger.

It would be nice to know the real cause of failure for the new pump and controllers. But I am more likely to believe that the pump ran dry instead of there being a problem with the wire size. Especially if you switched from a 115 volt motor to a 230 volt motor, as it only requires half the amperage and an even smaller wire size. But you would have needed to switch the wires in the breaker box to run it off of 230 volt. If you ran the new 230 volt motor on the old 115 volt power, I doubt that it would run. But if it did the motor would not have lasted long.

The 3 phase VFD system is not an upgrade. It is made for people who are made out of dollars and therfore have no cents (sense). It is not even a good idea on a high producing well, much less a well that only makes 1-2 GPM. Don't feel bad about not understanding what they were talking about. They don't know what they are talking about either.

Bottom line is that if your old pump lasted 36 years you need to go back with as close to that system as you can find. Make sure you only have a 1/3HP pump end on that 1/2HP motor. Give us the model number of the pump and we will check it out. I would think a Dry Well protection relay like the Cycle Sensor would be a must. Your demands are a lot higher now than they were years ago, so the Dry Well protection is important.

 

[deereguy]

1/3 and 1/2 HP motors were nearly always the same. They just printed 1/2HP on one and 1/3HP on the other. For simplifying inventory they now just mark them all 1/2HP. But they still make 1/3HP pump ends. Like in the Grundfos they make a 7S05-8 and a 7S05-11. While both show to require a 1/2HP motor, the 7S05-8 is just a 1/3HP pump. Even when equipped with a 1/2HP motor it will only draw a 1/3HP load. So the wire size should not need to be larger.

It would be nice to know the real cause of failure for the new pump and controllers. But I am more likely to believe that the pump ran dry instead of there being a problem with the wire size. Especially if you switched from a 115 volt motor to a 230 volt motor, as it only requires half the amperage and an even smaller wire size. But you would have needed to switch the wires in the breaker box to run it off of 230 volt. If you ran the new 230 volt motor on the old 115 volt power, I doubt that it would run. But if it did the motor would not have lasted long.

The 3 phase VFD system is not an upgrade. It is made for people who are made out of dollars and therfore have no cents (sense). It is not even a good idea on a high producing well, much less a well that only makes 1-2 GPM. Don't feel bad about not understanding what they were talking about. They don't know what they are talking about either.

Bottom line is that if your old pump lasted 36 years you need to go back with as close to that system as you can find. Make sure you only have a 1/3HP pump end on that 1/2HP motor. Give us the model number of the pump and we will check it out. I would think a Dry Well protection relay like the Cycle Sensor would be a must. Your demands are a lot higher now than they were years ago, so the Dry Well protection is important.

 

[deereguy]

Valveman: Thanks for your response. Right now I'm running a 1/2 hp 230v off a generator with a standard 1/2 pump end and 3 gpm dole getting 1 gpm at the tank. If I don't use the dole I pump dry in a few minutes. I'm looking at buying new wire and water line shortly. Ladies in the family are getting impatient.

Question: As long as I'm using a 1/2 hp motor and 1/3 hp pump end, does it make any difference if I use 115v or 230v? The original motor was 115v.

 

[Reach4]

As long as I'm using a 1/2 hp motor and 1/3 hp pump end, does it make any difference if I use 115v or 230v? The original motor was 115v.

As Craigpump and Valveman said, 230 draws half of the current, so would have half of the power loss in the wire for the same size wire. Or could let you go down 2 numbers on your AWG wire size and still have a little less power lost in the wire than the 115v and the bigger wire.

On the other hand, with 115V, you could use a quiet little Honda EU2000i generator to power the 115V pump, because that generator does not do 24o V.

 

[deereguy]

Thanks everyone for your valued input. Your input has allowed me to come up with the following plan.

Comment: The basic problem with the existing system was leaks in the water supply line to the tank. How we determined: Well pumps water at the well at a rate on 2 GPM with good pressure, flow restrictor with no change in the water level at 14'. When we hooked the water line to the tank 1400' away no water at the tank. Seems to indicate more breaks in the water line.

Plan to upgrade to the system includes:
* New 1" water line black poly coiled 1400'
* New electrical wire 650' from sons home to a outdoor panel close to the wells. Wire sized to run simultaneously two 1/2 hp 230v motors with 1/3 hp pump ends. We plan to have one pump turn on when the water level drops below two feet and the other when the water level drops below 4 feet. Tank capacity 1000 gal 10' tall.
*Add a Cycle Sensor.

I don't have a wiring diagram on how to wire the system.

The unanswered question is: What size wire/breaker (650') to run 2 each 1/2hp 230v pumps. rick

 

[Reach4]

Looking at the Franklin AIM manual, I am thinking #6 for 230VAC or #1 for 115 VAC. Do read the information from the Franklin AIM manual yourself. This is a clip from that manual. "Cable lengths in Tables 11 & 11A allow for a 5% voltage drop running at maximum nameplate amperes". As a conservative approach, I would double the 650 ft to 1300 ft to account for the two pumps starting simultaneously, and use that number with the table. Two pumps starting simultaniously could happen following a power outage. I would bet #8 for 230VAC would work OK, but it is more than the table would suggest. I clipped it off, but for 115V, the table says #2 :1460 ft and #1:1780 ft.

 

[Valveman]

My book shows #10 wire is only good to 630' for a 1HP load. But with 1/3HP pump ends and not starting the pumps at the same time, I think #10 would still be good to 650'.

Here is a drawing and wiring diagram for a float switch and Cycle Sensor to a storage tank.

 

[deereguy]

I installed a new 1400' water line, yesterday. Now pumping 3 gpm through a 3 gallon dole. So, the main source of my well problem was the leaking water line. I replaced old with 1" poly 250#. Now to replacing all the electrical. I'm doing the work myself with help from family members.

Question: I'm looking for a knowledgeable source that I can purchase my electrical items. Some of the items I need are: shut off, relay, flow switch, doles and cycle sensor. Thinking of ordering the wire from Home Depot (3 wire or 4?). thanks, rick

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like you already have a Dole valve. I can help you with the Cycle Sensor. And you need a (pump up) float switch instead of a flow switch. You can Google the float switch and relay. Grainger is a good place for both of those.