Drawdown Calculation....

[Valveman]

If you use a CSV with a 4.5 gallon size tank, the pump will have to come on more often for little uses of water like flushing a toilet or filling an ice maker. BUT when the pump does come on, it will stay on until you stop using water. So you could flush a toilet 20 times in a row and the CSV just makes the pump stay on until the toilet has filled after the 20th flush. Or you can take a 20 minute shower and the pump will stay on for 21 minutes.

Without a CSV and just using the 50 gallon tank that holds 15 gallons of water, the pump will come on and refill the tank every time you use 15 gallons of water. 1.6 gallon toilet flushed 20 times would be 32 gallons, which is 3 pump cycles. 3 GPM shower head running for 20 minutes would be 60 gallons, which is 4 pump cycles. Running a 5 GPM hose for 2 hours would be 600 gallons, which is 40 pump cycles. Using a CSV would eliminate all these cycles.

When using a CSV to eliminate cycles during longer term uses of water, it really doesn't hurt anything to have the small tank and let the pump cycle 20 times a day for random toilet flushes. But since you already have a 50 gallon tank, I would use it with the CSV1A. Then the CSV eliminates cycling for any long term use of water, and you still have 15 gallons in the tank for random toilet flushes. You will soon see that the larger tank was not needed, but it won't hurt anything. If I was doing this from scratch, I wouldn't waste my money on the larger tank.

Oh and the pressure should be what you need, not what the pump needs. You will like 40/60 better, and using a CSV to hold a steady 55 while using water will make it feel even stronger in the shower.

 

[magdiel1975]

yeah.. well..thing is that I have to keep this 50 gal tank because it's working and I know I could use it with a CSV.
It's difficult for me to understand how a CSV will help more the pump..
Let's say I take a shower, while Im taking the shower the pump will come on and stay on until I stop using the water...then right after me, my wife goes in and takes a shower, the pump will come on again..then after her, my son goes in and so on.. doesn't that mean that the pump will be on/off more frequently with a CSV? - whereas with a big tank, all 3 of us can take a shower without the pump coming ON at all...maybe one time,

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Take a look at the "drawdown" column: http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC7025_04_14_WXTsizingCard.pdf
In practice you would probably get a little less than that, because that number depends on things being optimum.

 

[magdiel1975]

thanks..so according to the chart.. 30/50 is better?

 

[Reach4]

thanks..so according to the chart.. 30/50 is better?

Hard to say. It may be that with 40/60 your pump will pump slower as the pressure approaches 60. So the times could be a wash. But yes, the drawdown is more with 30/50.

 

[magdiel1975]

so yeah.. with a CSV according to the video I saw on how it works.. everyt time the water is used, the pump will come on and stay on in order to keep same pressure..which is a good idea..but, my issue with it is.. every time the toilet is flushed, the pump will come on.. every time I wash my hands the pump will come on..every time I use water the pump will come on..am I understanding that correctly?.. if so, doesn't that make the pump come on/off (cycle) more often? - I mean.. right now, I can flush the toilet a few times and wash dishes without the pump coming on not even once..so Im still kinda iffy on how is the CSV good for the pump other than the fact the it helps maintain the same pressure.

 

[Valveman]

yeah.. well..thing is that I have to keep this 50 gal tank because it's working and I know I could use it with a CSV.
It's difficult for me to understand how a CSV will help more the pump..
Let's say I take a shower, while Im taking the shower the pump will come on and stay on until I stop using the water...then right after me, my wife goes in and takes a shower, the pump will come on again..then after her, my son goes in and so on.. doesn't that mean that the pump will be on/off more frequently with a CSV? - whereas with a big tank, all 3 of us can take a shower without the pump coming ON at all...maybe one time,

Yes a tank has a little more draw down at 30/50 than at 40/60, but a pump produce more GPMs at 30/50 than at 40/60, so your pump run times are about the same. You will just have less pressure in the shower with 30/50 than with 40/60.

And again your 50 gallon tank only holds 15 gallons of water. If you can take 3 showers with 15 gallons of water, you are barely getting a spit bath. Most people use about 50 gallons per shower. 50 X 3 would be 150 gallons to take three showers, which would mean your pump had to fill that 15 gallon tank 10 times. Without a CSV your pump is always pumping 20 GPM even when you are only using one 3 GPM shower. So the shower keeps draining the tank and the pump keeps cycling repeatedly to refill it.

With a CSV the pump only cycles once per shower no matter how long the shower or how much water you use. The CSV turns your 20 GPM pump into a 3 GPM pump to match the rate of the shower. So there is no extra water being produced to fill the tank and cause the pump to cycle.

Without a CSV you would need 10 of those 50 gallon size tanks to have enough water for three 50 gallons showers with just one cycle for the pump. In other words, as far as your pump is concerned a CSV is better than 10 pressure tanks.

 

[magdiel1975]

Ok, I see how the CSV would be better if I intend to use the water for long periods of time.. but in my household, we are constantly using water to wash dishes and washing our hands and stuff... maybe I was exagerating a bit about the showers, but when it comes to the wife in the kitchen, she is constantly running the water on/off..so that means the pump will come on every time the faucet is turned on right?

I think it might compensate, because with the CSV, the pump will come on every time the faucet is used..without the CSV, it will not.. so in other words, the pump will come on/off less times without the CSV when it comes to opening faucets to wash hands/dishes and such..but CSV is better for taking showers.. so i guess it evens it out no?

 

[Valveman]

so yeah.. with a CSV according to the video I saw on how it works.. everyt time the water is used, the pump will come on and stay on in order to keep same pressure..which is a good idea..but, my issue with it is.. every time the toilet is flushed, the pump will come on.. every time I wash my hands the pump will come on..every time I use water the pump will come on..am I understanding that correctly?.. if so, doesn't that make the pump come on/off (cycle) more often? - I mean.. right now, I can flush the toilet a few times and wash dishes without the pump coming on not even once..so Im still kinda iffy on how is the CSV good for the pump other than the fact the it helps maintain the same pressure.

An occasional pump cycle for a random toilet flush or wash of the hands is not hard on the pump. Cycling repeatedly during multiple showers and long term uses of water is what kills pumps. And like I have said over and over, using a CSV WITH the larger tank still lets you flush a toilet and maybe wash a few dishes without the pump even coming on. But when taking showers or using water elsewhere the CSV takes over and keeps the pump running continuously. Seeing how the CSV works over time you will realize the larger tank was just a waste of money and space.

You already have the problem of your tank not being able to be filled as fast as the pump can produce. This is just one symptom of many that is caused by cycling. Next the bladder in the tank will break from quickly stretching, the check valve will fail from quickly closing, the pressure switch will fail from quickly snapping, etc., etc. That is if the cycling doesn't destroy the pump first. With a CSV all these problems go away. In the past we would throw another big tank at your system to try and Band Aid these problems, but a larger tank cannot do all the things a CSV can do for you.

 

[magdiel1975]

Ok.. well, then I migh just give it a go.. Im getting convinced little by little lol... so, the CSV will go before the pressure switch and gauge right? here's a pic of my setup.

 

[Valveman]

Ok, I see how the CSV would be better if I intend to use the water for long periods of time.. but in my household, we are constantly using water to wash dishes and washing our hands and stuff... maybe I was exagerating a bit about the showers, but when it comes to the wife in the kitchen, she is constantly running the water on/off..so that means the pump will come on every time the faucet is turned on right?

I think it might compensate, because with the CSV, the pump will come on every time the faucet is used..without the CSV, it will not.. so in other words, the pump will come on/off less times without the CSV when it comes to opening faucets to wash hands/dishes and such..but CSV is better for taking showers.. so i guess it evens it out no?

The CSV more than evens it out. It takes a minute for the little tank to fill and the pump to shut off. As long as your wife uses water in the kitchen every 60 seconds when she is busy, the CSV would just keep the pump running. But if she left the water off for more than 1 minute, the CSV would let the little tank fill and the pump would shut off. Then she would have to use the 1 gallon out of the tank before the pump would come back on. She would have to let the water run for a minute to get the pump to start, then she would have to turn the faucet off and leave it off for a minute before the pump would shut off. Even if she had a stop watch and did this every two minutes, she could only make the pump cycle 30 times in an hour.

AGAIN you already have a 50 gallon tank that holds 15 gallons of water. Just adding a CSV will eliminate the problem of the tank losing pressure after pump stop, eliminate cycling during showers and other long term uses, and make the pressure switch, check valve, and everything else including the pump last longer. And once you see how the CSV works, you will realize you really didn't need that large of a tank.

Back to your problem. You can either add a larger pressure tank that MAY sort of help with these problems, or you can just add a CSV and be guaranteed the problems will be taken care of.

I am sorry you didn't have a good pump man to begin with. You should be playing golf or shopping for presents for the kids instead of educating yourself on pump systems. If your pump man had installed a CSV to begin with, the only thing you would have to know is that water comes out of your faucets when you open them. You wouldn't even know where your well and pressure tank are located, and that is the way it should be. Unfortunately you now know more than most pump installers in the business. Most of them don't know these things either, and that is a real shame.

 

[Valveman]

Ok.. well, then I migh just give it a go.. Im getting convinced little by little lol... so, the CSV will go before the pressure switch and gauge right? View attachment 31924 here's a pic of my setup.

The CSV needs to go before the line tees over to the pressure tank. I can't tell where you incoming and outgoing lines are in the picture.

 

[magdiel1975]

The incoming from the well is where you see the dark pipe coming up from the ground in the back..
My 50 gal tank says that it's equivalent to 120 gal..(whatever that means)
I may be able to exaange it for an 86 gal (220 gal equivalent) for just $65 more.
Now, the only thing is that the current tank I have has plastic inlet or flaunge..the other one has steel.. I read that plastic can crack, but steel can rust..so not sure what to do

 

[Valveman]

As long as you don't have any water lines teed off before you get to the house, the CSV just needs to go on that pipe as soon as it comes up out of the floor before the first tee.

Don't let those "equivalent" numbers fool you. A 50 gallon size (120 equivalent) tank still only holds 15 gallons of water. If you can take that tank back you could probably get an entire Pside-Kick kit for the same or less money. Just remember a tank that only holds 15 gallons of water isn't much for a house that uses 300-400 gallons per day. Your water doesn't come from the tank it comes from the well. All the tank is for is to reduce the number of pump cycles. With a CSV taking care of the cycling problem, all you need is a little 4.5 gallon size tank.

Now if that tank really held 120 gallons of water, that would be a different deal. But you probably don't have the room and don't want to shell out the cash for 10 of those 50 gallon tanks. Even if you did the water would be sitting in a big tank long enough to get stale or at least taste like the rubber diaphragm. With a 4.5 gallon size tank you get fresh water straight from the well all the time.

 

[Ballvalve]

Most people use about 50 gallons per shower. 50 X 3 would be 150 gallons to take three showers.

Hello! Many counties in California are using 40 to 50 gallons per day per person. Thats with irrigation and laundry etc. So I guess they are taking that 10 gallon spit shower. Any one using 50 gallons of water for a shower should be flogged. Imagine a 55 gallon barrel over your head and a spigot in the bottom. If I used all of that, I must have fallen asleep standing. Or I am a pair of teens that started out to save water but got distracted with some other activity.

Imagine, BEVERLY HILLS has a per capita water use of only 235 gallons per day. Only a few soon to be changed water districts get into 4 or 500 GPD per capita. All this talk about pressure fluctuations in the shower is silly. CSV or no, its Mom on the toilet or the laundry that makes for the sudden shock of cold or hot water. That is related to pipe size, not pressure at the well tank. Pressure changes in the shower from a 30-50 switch are not problematic, its the change in TEMPERATURE and pressure from in house use that hurts. And I know that pressure tanks or CSV's don't fix that.
How many houses have we had where you can't take a shower because the laundry is in use downstream? Because the plumber saved a buck on pipe size. AND, if Mom is in the laundry, and sis is brushing her teeth, and dad is in the shower, the pump is running non stop, CSV or no. Go 30-60 and that is pretty much a certainty.

Even if you did the water would be sitting in a big tank long enough to get stale or at least taste like the rubber diaphragm. With a 4.5 gallon size tank you get fresh water straight from the well all the time.

C'mon now, I know you deserve to sell valves for all the good time you spend here, and those app's that require it, but their ain't no rubber in a tank any more and the FDA will hang you by the cajones if your tank liner is giving out chemicals like an old red brass valve or a lead street tap. You have a point if we are discussing a cistern in the summer - I can taste the degrade in the water from bacteria or algae forming due to heat and stagnation. But then we know that a cistern makes the primary pump last mega years if done right. Lot of trade off's.

I certainly agree with you that that the bearings in a pump wear from cycling. But if hydro gensets can run for 250 years without a stop, [and those are often oil lubed, typically under pressure] then Sherlock deduces that 30 years with a bunch of cycles on a little baby pump is do-able. This is a circular debate that will not be solved. 5 plumbers pipe a house, and 5 electricians wire a house, and each version will be completely unique. And they will all knock each other to the homeowner for the Sh*** job the other guy gave them.

I should have continued with Archeology as I had started. But then you have all those sexual harassment charges. No win.

 

[Valveman]

Most people use about 50 gallons per shower. 50 X 3 would be 150 gallons to take three showers.

Hello! Many counties in California are using 40 to 50 gallons per day per person. Thats with irrigation and laundry etc. So I guess they are taking that 10 gallon spit shower. Any one using 50 gallons of water for a shower should be flogged. Imagine a 55 gallon barrel over your head and a spigot in the bottom. If I used all of that, I must have fallen asleep standing. Or I am a pair of teens that started out to save water but got distracted with some other activity.

For every person in California that thinks green and conserves water there is another person who thinks they are "entitled" to use all the water they want. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual per person water use in CA is not more than other states.

Personally I work hard and play hard, so I get dirty everyday. A daily 10 minute shower with a 5 GPM shower head is as much necessity as it is a luxury for me. I usually even wash my hair twice, just to get my fingernails clean. The luxury part is letting that hot water hit my shoulders and back, which feels really good with strong constant pressure.

Imagine, BEVERLY HILLS has a per capita water use of only 235 gallons per day. Only a few soon to be changed water districts get into 4 or 500 GPD per capita. All this talk about pressure fluctuations in the shower is silly. CSV or no, its Mom on the toilet or the laundry that makes for the sudden shock of cold or hot water. That is related to pipe size, not pressure at the well tank. Pressure changes in the shower from a 30-50 switch are not problematic, its the change in TEMPERATURE and pressure from in house use that hurts. And I know that pressure tanks or CSV's don't fix that.
How many houses have we had where you can't take a shower because the laundry is in use downstream? Because the plumber saved a buck on pipe size. AND, if Mom is in the laundry, and sis is brushing her teeth, and dad is in the shower, the pump is running non stop, CSV or no. Go 30-60 and that is pretty much a certainty.

Yeah pipe size matters for stuff like that. But the small pipe size is WHY you need strong constant pressure instead of continually decreasing pressure as comes from large pressure tanks. Especially with small house pipes you are less likely to get scalded in the shower if you have strong constant pressure. Constant pressure coming directly from the pump will always be stronger than when air is pushing water out of a pressure tank. And a lot of people do not think pressure swings from 30 to 50 are a problem, but that is because they have just gotten use to it. 30 PSI is almost half of 50 PSI, which makes a big difference in shower pressure. I hear from people everyday who say they just thought their 30/50 pressure was good until they get that steady 40 PSI from a CSV. Now they don't know how they lived with highs and lows of 30 to 50 for so long.

Even if you did the water would be sitting in a big tank long enough to get stale or at least taste like the rubber diaphragm. With a 4.5 gallon size tank you get fresh water straight from the well all the time.

C'mon now, I know you deserve to sell valves for all the good time you spend here, and those app's that require it, but their ain't no rubber in a tank any more and the FDA will hang you by the cajones if your tank liner is giving out chemicals like an old red brass valve or a lead street tap. You have a point if we are discussing a cistern in the summer - I can taste the degrade in the water from bacteria or algae forming due to heat and stagnation. But then we know that a cistern makes the primary pump last mega years if done right. Lot of trade off's.

The rubber bag or diaphragm in a tank may not have dangerous chemicals, but I can still taste the rubber. Water is always cooler and fresher when it comes straight from Mother Nature (the well) than when it has been sitting in a rubber bag in a warm room.

I certainly agree with you that that the bearings in a pump wear from cycling. But if hydro gensets can run for 250 years without a stop, [and those are often oil lubed, typically under pressure] then Sherlock deduces that 30 years with a bunch of cycles on a little baby pump is do-able. This is a circular debate that will not be solved. 5 plumbers pipe a house, and 5 electricians wire a house, and each version will be completely unique. And they will all knock each other to the homeowner for the Sh*** job the other guy gave them.

30 years with a bunch of cycles is NOT do-able. For every person who gets away with it there are 10 more that have to buy new pumps on a regular basis.

And yes every contractor has their own way of doing things. But there are certain things that don't change. Like water always runs downhill, the boss is a SOB, payday is on Friday, and the fewer times a pump cycles the longer it will last.

 

[Reach4]

I am reminded of the recent King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden bath "news".

 

[Valveman]

I am reminded of the recent King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden bath "news".

I had to look it up. Yeah he wants to ban baths to save energy but he lives in a 20,000+ square foot palace. He could probably take 100 baths a day for what it cost to heat that much space. Maybe we should ban palaces?