Help troubleshooting hot water running out quickly (replaced dip tube already).

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Tireshark

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You're lucky to get 75-80% of the tank capacity out as fully hot before noticing it dropping off in temperature. Depends on how hot you've set the thermostat, and how cold your incoming supply water is. Keep in mind that at the shower, you're not typically using 100% hot water, you've got some cold mixed in (less in the winter because it typically gets colder, sometimes frigid).

As far as I know, single handle valves are the more likely culprits of cross-overs, but a hot water recirculation system or possibly a washing machine hookup could cause it as well. Sounds like the tank is doing its job, but as winter approaches, the incoming cold water will cool things off faster than in the summer...that may be the effect they are noticing.

Thanks jad i was curious as to how much hot water you should actually expect when you are just running it wide open. Also for the tip on the washing machine... might disconnect it to see if it affects anything.

Someone else told me to do the bucket test with the showerhead instead of the tub spout like i was doing, which i think i will do. I noticed that they did replace the showerhead with one of those handheld new models... could be affecting things as well.

Going to doublecheck my bucket measurements when i do to make sure im recording accurate gallons out of it... might be that they changed their water usage habits and dont realize that they did... or could be something screwy somewhere in the house... or could be the water heater operating at less than normal levels... or a combination of everything.
 

Jadnashua

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Just changing the showerhead could be the red herring...if the original one was a low-flow one, and the new one is using a lot more water, especially if they took out the restrictor (some have a removable one, but you can drill out the passage on some to increase the flow), there you have it. By Federal code, it should not provide more than 2.5gpm at (I think) 60psi input. In the winter, you might be using nearly 2gpm of that as hot, depending on the incoming cold water temp, so that's only in the order of 10-12 minutes. Depending on the burner and how much crud is in the tank (acts like an insulator, slowing heat transfer), you'll get some heated during that timeframe, but not much.

Some of the low-flow heads only use 1-1.5gpm, and would make a big difference in the length of time on that size WH for showers.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Well, the only other thing it could possibly be is a leak in the slab of your home....

or a leak in the crawl space that is pissing out the water as fast as it can be heated


if it is a slab leak then just start crying the blues because if you think changing a water
heater sounds expensive.., you are in for a big shock for making repairs to that kind of problem


embrace the horror...............




...
 

WJcandee

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Also, the problem started only days after i replaced a handle cartridges, although i imagine that what i did would not have affected the hot water output.

I think you said that there are no single-handle faucets, right? So that wouldn't be a factor; it could be if you had a single-handle.

i'm going to flush it out in a few minutes.

So...how did the crud-flushing go? A major concern in doing so is that the crud will come out but will jam open the drain valve. So then you need either to replace the drain valve, if you can, or the unit. As a DIY job, replacing the drain valve is the move. When the licensed plumber is doing it, the return on investment starts to diminish.

Most likely, the issue is crud, but I appreciate that you're the kind of guy that likes to fix stuff and to be sure that the whole thing needs to be replaced before replacing the whole thing. I'm that way, and I wish that more auto mechanics were that way. That's why I like mine; he doesn't replace something until he is highly-confident that that's the cause, and he will look to see if just the bushing/clamp/whatever is available from some aftermarket supplier (Febest is a good one for this), even if the manufacturer only sells the whole unit.

So I'm with you.

And I think the folks here didn't mean to impune you; sometimes we run into folks who want to half-ass stuff to the point that it's either unsafe or just stupid. Doesn't sound ike you're that kind of guy, so we will all proceed from that assumption.

In terms of longevity, you can prolong the water heater life by replacing that anode rod every year or so, if you have enough room vertically above the heater to position one to slide in.

But the biggest issue in terms of replacement is the structural integrity of the vessel. Anyone who has had one give way, as I have, knows that it's not a fun cleanup, and if it isn't in a concrete slab basement with a floor drain, it can be ugly and/or dangerous. If it is, the potential harm of letting it go until it cracks is somewhat diminished, but if it is, in a closet or on the second floor, it's kind of insurance to change it out.

By the way, turning it off and letting it cool so you can do the flushing may well be the thing that causes it to crack after 23 years; that's what happened with mine. I turned the 15-ish-year-old unit off in the morning, and when I came back from dinner, water was running out from under the garage door and a very nice waterfall was coming through the garage ceiling. (It was up in second-floor apartment over the garage. The replacement one now has a protective drain pan underneath it.)

As to the symptoms you have, there will come a point where the crud accumulation makes enough of a difference to be noticeable. As long as one can get through one's shower with no issues, you don't notice whether there was 30 gals available or 20, because it proceeds to reheat when you turn off the water. I don't think the Crud Effect is linear, so there may be a point where it REALLY starts to affect stuff and that threshhold may have been crossed. More likely, though, any individual session of hot water usage by your tenant was probably adequately being served -- until it wasn't. There was 19 gals available and they used 18. But then over time there was now 16 gals available...Then they noticed and called you. So, the "They just noticed it recently" makes sense.
 
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Terry

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Well, the only other thing it could possibly be is a leak in the slab of your home....

or a leak in the crawl space that is pissing out the water as fast as it can be heated


if it is a slab leak then just start crying the blues because if you think changing a water
heater sounds expensive.., you are in for a big shock for making repairs to that kind of problem


embrace the horror...............

...

Mark,
We did one two years ago with a slab leak. Some hot water, but not much. We wound up repiping the hot lines in the home.
It took us a while to figure out where the hot water was going. Into the ground it turned out.
 

Reach4

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Anyone who has had one give way
How did that go... was it a sudden gusher, or was it that a slow leak was not noticed for a long time? I agree that a tank leak definitely means replace.

I would think somebody who considered himself/herself to be an environmentalist would tend to repair repair rather than replace. :cool:
 

Tireshark

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I think you said that there are no single-handle faucets, right? So that wouldn't be a factor; it could be if you had a single-handle.

...

So...how did the crud-flushing go? A major of hot water usage by your tenant was probably adequately being served -- until it wasn't. There was 19 gals available and they used 18. But then over time there was now 16 gals available...Then they noticed and called you. So, the "They just noticed it recently" makes sense.

Hey thanks for all that wjcandee, really appreciate it.

Ouch on that cracked tank that you had... i'll keep that in mind when i work on older water heaters. Thankfully this one is in a little workshop off the carport, so it's not in a critical location. I've been thinking about purchasing one of those water alarms anyway, just to reduce the possibility of an unnoticed issue.

Flushed the tank and it wasn't really bad. The water was perfectly clear, even at the beginning. When i had the water supply turned off i didnt really even get any crud. When i turned the water back on, and opened the drain, however, the water came out a lot more forcefully, and at that point i did get some little white particles (pieces of the old dip tube or calcium or whatever it is). A moderate amount, but it still didn't look like anything that should really affect the performance (at least to me). I repeated the flushing process several times... i didn't keep at it until i eliminated all of the particles... but to me it seemed like it should be ok.

The tenant was hanging out with me while i did this, and we did some talking about it. He did start to walk it back a little, and talk like maybe it was working okay but his family started using too much water... soo... not real sure on that. Would hate to have wasted all of your and my time, haha... but i have learned a lot about working on water heaters from this ordeal.

Still, i DID get a fairly significant difference in hot water between the kitchen and tub when i did the bucket tests... but i imagine that could be due in part to the larger volume of water that is coming out of the tub spout versus the sink faucet. I'm still going to redo the bucket tests, paying closer attention to how much i am extracting, and using the showerhead instead of the spout. I'm really interested in inspecting their new showerhead to see how much gpm it puts out, and will probably suggest (or install) a low flow showerhead to see what kind of difference it makes.

We also discussed adding a 2nd bathroom to the house, which is something i have been wanting to do for a while... if i did that, then i might possibly upgrade to a larger capacity water heater anyway.

Anyway, i'll report back what i find after i do the showerhead tests.
 

WJcandee

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Then I guess it wasn't crud. (Or the crud had hardened...) :)

Let us know how it all works out...

(I think the option for the tenant might be: (1) Existing showerhead and quit-yer-bitchin' or (2) low flow showerhead they will hate but have enough hot water...
 

Master Plumber Mark

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Mark,
We did one two years ago with a slab leak. Some hot water, but not much. We wound up repiping the hot lines in the home.
It took us a while to figure out where the hot water was going. Into the ground it turned out.


we have had this issue rear its ugly head many times before....
the homeowner claims they have a bad water heater and
you go out and change it because they say that they want a new one..

and they call you back a few weeks later to tell you its still not very hot
and you go back out and figure out its in the slab.... Then who gets blamed
for the mistake....????.

we try to make sure that this is not the problem before we do the heater
 

Reach4

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and they call you back a few weeks later to tell you its still not very hot
and you go back out and figure out its in the slab....
In that case, wouldn't there be different symptoms, such as the burner running a lot, even if hot water was not being used?

Also, it seems that you could feel the output pipe, and if no hot has been drawn recently and there is no recirculation, I would think the temperature would fall off quickly with distance.
 
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Jadnashua

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Many people are clueless about things in their home and do not put together little signs that are more obvious to others.

The symptoms of a slab leak would include: a warm spot in the slab, potentially (not always) a damp spot on the floor, the water meter turning constantly (might be very slow, though), and the WH running more often (but it would depend on the size of the leak(s)). This is in addition to the fact that the amount of hot water seems limited (because it is!).
 

Tireshark

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Update for this situation:

It's been about 3 weeks and when i asked the tenant how things were going, he said no one had complained since i worked on it... so either they started using less water, or something i did helped. The old dip tube did have holes in it, so that definitely should have helped the situation.

I tested the capacity out of the showerhead with a fully heated tank, and got 20 gallons of hot water, about 23 of hot/warm, and at 25 it was cool... so based on the numbers provided by jadnashua on the first page, this indicates that the 30 gallon heater is pretty much operating normally.

I checked their showerhead and it says it is rated at 2.5gpm, but i'm going to recommend that the tenant gets a low flow model. Also when i tested the shower head i noticed that there was a fairly moderate stream of water coming out of the tub spout while the shower was activated... i assume that's just a bad gasket or something and will repair it, which should help the situation even more (because all of that hot water is just going down the drain instead of out the showerhead).

Thanks for the help.

EDIT: I typed in 'low flow shower head' to google and this was the first result:

Niagara Earth Massage 1.25GPM Low flow showerhead
Great reviews and only $8... i think i might just buy it and give it to them as a christmas gift... heck might buy one for myself too.
 
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Reach4

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I checked their showerhead and it says it is rated at 2.5gpm, but i'm going to recommend that the tenant gets a low flow model. Also when i tested the shower head i noticed that there was a fairly moderate stream of water coming out of the tub spout while the shower was activated... i assume that's just a bad gasket or something and will repair it, which should help the situation even more (because all of that hot water is just going down the drain instead of out the showerhead).

Consider Delta Faucet RP17454 Tub Spout Pull-Down Diverter, Chrome or RP17453 (same but quality plastic). Really works well, but operation is confusing to people who don't know how to activate it (pull down tip). After that it is very easy.

Put either of those two numbers into the Search box above.
 

Reach4

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So i think i will have to repair that middle stem instead of swapping spouts, right?
Probably, but if you could block the dribbling with your hand, you could maybe work around it with a diverter spout. Fixing the original diverter would be the right way however.
 
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