Neutralizer not raising ph: rebed? control problem?

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beren

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I am wondering if there is something wrong with my neutralizer or if I need a rebed of the calcite. (Related: should I get a new tank?)

Background:

Raw water is Hardness 4.21 gpg
> PH 6.03
> Iron .064
> TDS 120

I have two 2.5 cu foot neutralizers (13 x 54 inch tanks, with Fleck 7000 controls)
piped in parallel via a one inch pipe from the well pressure tanks. The tanks are set at 30-50 psi. The pump refill rate is 19 gpm. There is a softener after the neutralizers. Our water usage is approximately 250 gallons per day.

This system has worked well for 7 years. Recently, however, I can’t get the ph up to 7. In the past, I did manual regenerations whenever the ph dropped to 6.7 or below. This would happen only 2-3 times per year. (My original installer told me not to do automatic regenerations because they just waste calcite, and I didn’t have enough water usage to justify it. I realize now that advice was probably not correct, but I wanted to make it clear that for a number of years the units were only backwashed a few times a year. I would replenish the calcite about 1-2 times per year, each time needing about one bag per tank).

When I regenerate the second neutralizer (i.e. the second in the path, although they are in parallel), the backwash will increase the ph, from, for example, 6.5 to 6.7. But when I backwash the first neutralizer, there is no impact on the ph, in fact, it sometimes gets worse, getting more acidic. I realize that the ph can actually change over time given the well conditions, but even a drop of .2 is disconcerting. (I use an electronic testing unit that has been calibrated).

The backwash cycles appear to be working fine, I can hear the valves open, I can see the water coming from the drain. At the drain, I’ve measured the rate of drain water, and it is just over 6 gpm for both units. I’ve read on this forum that a higher backwash rate is needed, but this system did work and it was sized by professional. He recommended a parallel system instead of series to maintain pressure in our 3 story house. (And I’m not sure if I’m measuring the backwash rate correctly, the 6 gpm is what I get at the drain during the backwash).

The backwash water is a little cloudy, and if I shine a flash on the tank during the backwash it appears that the calcite is in suspension, although that is hard to tell. After the backwash the calcite level drops by about 1/2-3/4 of an inch. The backwash is set to 10 minutes, with a 10 minute refill, which is how the Fleck’s were programmed from the supplier to be used as neutralizers.

I’ve tried multiple backwashes back to back. I did add a small amount of corosex to the second neutralizer (not the one that appears to be giving me problems) and that helped a little, but didn’t solve the problem.

Does this sound like a problem with the backwash/Fleck, or do I need a rebed?

If a rebed, my plumber, who has only done a few, says that it is often just cheaper to buy a new empty tank, because it can be hard to get the material out if it has hardened.

We’ve had some leaks in the copper pipes from pitting, and I’m assuming it is from the low ph.

Any suggestions for what I should do would be very much appreciated.
 

ditttohead

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A few suggestions.

Downflow Calcite systems should be backwashed regularly. This reduces their potential for caking, fouling, and channeling. It is nothing more than crushed marble, almost like sand and it can mush up over time. Backwashing re-classifies the bed and prevents the problems mentioned earlier. Typical calcite backwashing for a 12" tank at 60 degrees should be about 8-10 gpm. Calcite does not expand well for multiple reasons, but this is the minimum I would recommend. The backwash time should be shortened to about 3-5 minutes max depending on what is in the water. If you have a lot of iron or sediment in the water, longer backwash times may be preferred. Fast rinse can also be shortened to about 3-5 minutes. Frequency should be about weekly, but this can vary based on the water quality.

You should probably check the valves internals, seals/spacers to ensure they are in good condition. A simple valve rebuild might be needed. Worn internals can allow untreated water to go to the application.

Hardened material is usually cause by inadequate and infrequent backwashing. And your plumber is correct. How much is your time worth? Trying to beat the media out of the tank may not be worth it if has turned into a cement chunk.
 

beren

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@dittohead: I'm assuming I can't do anything about the backwash rate to increase it?
Also, how hard is a valve rebuild? I've seen the diagrams, and it looks like stacks of orings, is it as complicated as it looks to get it apart (and more importantly) back together again?
I have no issue with buying a new tank, my current plumber is a good guy and I trust his judgement. I need to check to see if I can get the same exact height tank (at least, not one taller) so that we don't have to replumb.
 

ditttohead

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You can change the DLFC button and the drain fitting to increase the flow rate. The maximum size with the current drain fitting is 7 GPM, the 1" drain fitting can accommodate up to 25 GPM.

Tank heights vary considerably by manufacturer and even with the same manufacturer as production techniques and other variable change over time. I would take the valve off and see what happens inside the tank. You could remove the DLFC button and let the system backwash for a while controlling the flow with the inlet valve. Calcite is difficult to lift even with high flow rates.
 

beren

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@dittohead: Your responses are super helpful, thanks.
Just a few points of clarification for a newbie:

1. Would doing the rebuild of the seal and spacers as per your video also address the issue of untreated water possibly bypassing the unit? (The reason I ask is that on the part diagram, I see a breakout for a "bypass valve assembly" but I'm wondering if this is just for a softener. In other words, do the seal and spacers control the internal mechanism which determines where the water is flowing?)

2. Should I replace the piston as well? (I believe is is 7000 BW Filter Piston Assembly, 61452-20)

3. My unit drains through a 5/8 inch garden hose. Am I correct that given that situation, changing out the DLFC wouldn't help me, because the backwash drain would be limited by the hose diameter? I might be able to switch to a 3/4 hose, not sure if a 1 inch would fit in my drain. If I can switch out the DLFC, am I correct in that it just threads in from the top of the unit (i.e. I don't have to break it down in any other way?)

4. You suggest taking the valve off and seeing what happens inside the tank. I'm a little confused by that. I can't run a backwash with the value off, can I?

Thanks much!
 
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ditttohead

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1. Untreated water can bypass inside the valve if a seal is torn. This is not very common as the drain seal area usually wears sooner than the other seals. This would be indicated by water flowing or dripping to the drain during service. Regardless, any seal can fail inside the valve so... The bypass valve must be in the service position, it is designed to allow the system to be bypassed for repairs. Take a look at the maual, you will see flow diagrams and a damaged seal can cause water to go where it is not supposed to go.
2. Piston, seal/spacer kit should be replaced at the same time.
3. 5/8 garden hose will flow adequately. It is a velocity issue. Higher velocities cause excesive noise and vibration. You should simply replace the drain line with rigid PVC pipe. If you replace the DLFC (highly recommended) you should use 1" PVC. If you leave the DLFC, then replumb the drain in 3/4" PVC.
4. Take the valve off and inspect the media. See if it is a chunk of cement, or if it still a sandy type of media.
 

beren

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Thanks. I've ordered the piston, seal spacer kit, and a 10 gpm DLFC.

Oddly, my current unit (which has the elbow shaped DLFC, so I'm assuming has a 7 gpm button) has a 8 gpm flow restrictor mounted outside the control unit (between the elbow and the drain). This was how it was supplied. So I don't know if for some reason they left out the internal button, or if this is double kill.

Re doing the drain plumbing from the garden hose to PVC is no small task because of the tank location, so I'll check the media and rebuild the control for now keeping the same DLFC, and then have a plumber re-do the drain later.
 

Reach4

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One trick to test if your drain system is big enough would to somehow measure the pressure at the output at or near the controller during backwash. If the difference between the incoming water and the drain water was is 30 PSI or greater, I expect the drain line is big enough.

Here are some Fleck 7000 specifications:
Max. Backwash 25 psi drop

Standard Piston: 7 GPM (1.6 m3 /h)
High Flow Piston: 16 GPM (3.6 m3 /h)
Filter Piston: 31 GPM (7 m3 /h)

I presume you don't have the standard piston with your filter. I hope that is a reasonable presumption. I said 30 PSI differential was enough, because I wanted to leave a little margin over the 25. My comments are not based on experience. So maybe there is something I am not taking into account.
 

beren

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I'm not sure I could easily measure the output pressure. I say 'easily' because I'm sure I could temporarily plumb in a set of pipes with a pressure value.
I'm quite sure (but not positive) that I have 'filter piston' because I ordered the flect and the tank specifically as a filter, not a softener, and it was programmed for a filter. For the replacement I ordered the filter piston so it will definitely be that way once I do the rebuild.

My drain right now is a mishmash: 3/4 inch elbow off of the Fleck (and I assume a 7 gpm button), connected to a 8 gpm flow restictor, to a 3/4 garden hose adapter, to about 50 feet of 5/8 garden hose, free ending (no hard connection) to a 2 inch PVC drain pipe for about 10 feet, then to a 4 inch PVC pipe running about 150 feet to open air. I have no idea why the 8 gpm flow restrictor is there, unless the unit was originally installed with an internal 'button' restictor?

The original setup (different neutralizer, steel tanks that were soldered in place, I had to unsolder to add neautralizer!) drained through a 1 inch output drain into the 2 inch PVC, which ran for about 20 feet into a dry well. The dry well was located right outside my garage door in a gravel driveway. In the winter, the backwash water would fill the drywell and seep onto the driveway and freeze, leaving a sheet of ice right outside the garage door. Hard to believe, but true. This is why I didn't backwash often in the winter, it would create too many problems with the overflow. Because last winter was one of the coldest on record, the entire dry well froze over, and the backwash water ran back into the basement through the open drain pipe. Took me forever to find the source of the water because nothing was 'leaking'. The next time you see a ridiculously designed system, think of mine and have a good laugh.

I've since dug up the dry well, connected the 2 inch PVC that ended there to a 4 inch pipe, and ran it into the woods.
 

ditttohead

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Reach, those are the valve only specifications. That does not take into account the riser pipe, tank, media, etc.

If you have an 8 GPM button, then remove the 7 GPM button. Regardless, you will need to inspect the media that is remaining inside the tank and see if it is repairable. If it is a chunk of cement, then you may be better off replacing the tank and adding fresh media, being sure to backwash the system regularly, not when it is starting to fail...
 

Reach4

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Reach, those are the valve only specifications. That does not take into account the riser pipe, tank, media, etc.
So would you say that you can only tell if an existing mixed drain line system is adequate by measuring the flow -- perhaps with a bucket and a timer?
 

ditttohead

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hehe, I have been working 16 hour days lately, I misread your post. The drain specifications you posted are good. Just ignore me. :)

I do recommend keeping drain velocities under 8 Feet per Second to lessen the noise that is common with systems with undersized drains.
 

Bannerman

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One possible restricting factor with the 5/8" garden hose is the 50' length. The longer the length of pipe/hose, the higher the amount of restriction due to friction. In addition, garden hose tends to be somewhat soft and easily crushed or crimped.

It maybe advisable and likely relatively simple and inexpensive, to replace the garden hose with an equivalent length of larger diameter polyethylene tubing, 1" if possible.

Oddly, my current unit (which has the elbow shaped DLFC, so I'm assuming has a 7 gpm button) has a 8 gpm flow restrictor mounted outside the control unit (between the elbow and the drain).

I don't understand why an external restrictor would be installed in the drain line when Fleck's intended DLFC location is below the drain fitting.

The angled piece is the drain fitting whereas the DLFC button is located behind the drain fitting and looks like a flat washer with a specific size hole in the center. You'll need to remove the drain fitting to swap-out the DLFC button.
 
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beren

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The hose is in a location where it doesn't get crimped, and the sound of the water running through it is barely noticeable even when standing right next to it, and certainly not audible from upstairs. (Unlike the flow of oil through through the lines from my oil tank to the boiler, which sound like jet engines taking off). When this was installed, I just didn't know anything about drain flow requirements, etc. The supplier didn't mention anything, and I wasn't smart enough to ask.

That being said, I will get the entire drain redone at some point. It's just an odd configuration, the drain has to run from the tanks, up (vertically) about 5 feet, across the garage, and then down to the drain at floor level).

I don't know why the external restictor is there either. I'm wondering if the supplier of the system, wanting to get a slightly higher backwash rate for this size tank, left out the internal 7 gpm restrictor and added the 8 gpm one externally instead. (That begs the question of why he just didn't set it up with a 1 inch drain and a different DLFC). I do remember a conversation I had with him when I told him that in my old (steel tank) system, I would run a long garden hose (150 feet or so) to the woods for a manual regeneration to avoid the problem I had with the dry well filling up. He cautioned me not to do that with fiberglass tanks, saying they would crush from the vacuum created by the long hose run. Would a flow restictor protect against that? If so, maybe that's why he added it.
 

Reach4

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Would a flow restictor protect against that? If so, maybe that's why he added it.
A vacuum breaker on the drain line would! It should be located at a point before the line dips to the floor level. Higher, such as near the output of the controller would be better.

While you are at it, you might want to consider another vacuum breaker if you have a well or if your softener is not on the bottom floor. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-for-softener-filter-on-input-or-output.63102
 
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beren

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Interesting. Would that much vacuum really be created on an 'open air' drain? It's just a buried 4 inch pipe, almost totally open on the output end (there is a cap, but I've drilled a bunch of holes in it).

The softener is on the bottom floor, fed by a well. We've had pump failures and even a break in the well pump pipe, but I've been lucky in not having a problem with the neutralizer tanks. (There are a number of check valves, one in or just above the pump, one at the top of the well head, and a third at the house).

Would a backflow preventer work the same as a vacuum breaker?
 

Bannerman

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Would a backflow preventer work the same as a vacuum breaker?
No. A backflow preventer, also known as a check valve, permits flow in one direction while preventing flow in the opposite direction. (See here: http://www.spiraxsarco.com/Resources/Pages/Steam-Engineering-Tutorials/pipeline-ancillaries/check-valves.aspx )

A vacuum breaker permits air into the line when there is a vacuum present on the downstream line. A logical location to install a vacuum breaker would be the highest point in the drain tubing which sounds in your installation, is the 5' point in the garage, directly after the drain line rises.

Here is a photo showing the typical operation of a vacuum breaker:
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/water/article/28138
 

Reach4

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Four inch! wow. It does seem unlikely that you could develop a siphon. But suppose your cap got blocked for some reason (ice?), filled up the pipe, and then let go. That would suck. :rolleyes:

If the 4 inch starts at about the same level as the floor that the filter is on, some kind of short standpipe open to the air at the beginning of the 4 inch would not have enough pressure at that point to spew water, but would admit air. But that project would probably be more work than putting in the vacuum breaker where Bannerman suggests.
 

beren

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I finally got the parts in to rebuild the fleck control unit (3 weeks of waiting!) and am going to attack that today or tomorrow. As part of the rebuild I'm going to replace the DLFC with the 10 gpm size.

If anyone has tips for separating the system from the water lines (I'm hoping I just put it into bypass, release the pressure and remove the clips) and moving and perhaps having to tip the tank, I'm all ears!
 
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