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ByteMe

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OK, thread title is completely irrelevant.

I just installed a clack ws125ee with 2.5cuft of resin in a 13"x54" vessel. This baby is nice. Will have first soft water shower tomorrow in 4 months, YAHOO!

I set at 50k grains, 10gpg hardness, 6lb/cuft dosing. 5000 gallons between regens baby! Oh yea!

Observation on clack ws125ee; it is nosier than the fleck 5600SXT... Not by much, but it is.

I also don't remember the 5600sxt having an option on up/down brining. I chose up on this clack.

Anyways, just wanted to brag.
 

Tech1

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OK, thread title is completely irrelevant.

I just installed a clack ws125ee with 2.5cuft of resin in a 13"x54" vessel. This baby is nice. Will have first soft water shower tomorrow in 4 months, YAHOO!

I set at 50k grains, 10gpg hardness, 6lb/cuft dosing. 5000 gallons between regens baby! Oh yea!

Observation on clack ws125ee; it is nosier than the fleck 5600SXT... Not by much, but it is.

I also don't remember the 5600sxt having an option on up/down brining. I chose up on this clack.

Anyways, just wanted to brag.

If you are referring to the backwash noise you are hearing, I might recommend changing the flow control or adding one (if it is open at full boar). That should help quiet it down. I am not to big of a fan on upflow brining systems. I like using down flow, given the fact that the water has to travel down through the packed bed. Thus the water has a sturdier contact with the resin itself. Though, if you are backwashing an upflow system, you are pretty much just wasting your time in theory. The point of upflow is to keep the bed fluffed while using water, rather than having to backwash. Me personally, if I have a demand timed unit, then I recommend DF. Given the very nature of water and aquatic elements, these elements are easier released through the resin when the resin starts to foul out. At least with a DF system with a high quality resin, most elements are able to be filtered out. There's a lot to discuss on this but congratulations on your new system. Don't let the FE2 bug bite. :)
 

ByteMe

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Ummmmmm, I think I or maybe you are confused.

My understanding is that upflow brining is more efficient. Downflow has two disadvantages; the first being that the brine solution gets diluted with the water in the freeboard spacing and second that the calcium/Magnesium gets forced from the top depleted resin down through the bottom where the resin still is good.

But then, I might be high.

When back to normal use, the water is downflow, will not fluidize the bed.

Also, if you do a short backwash after a regen, you mix the "polished" bottom resin into the rest. Read somewhere that this was more efficient.

Edit: I believe the flow control is 4gpm.

Good post BTW, I am so looking forward to tomorrow morning.
 
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Tech1

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Ummmmmm, I think I or maybe you are confused.

My understanding is that upflow brining is more efficient. Downflow has two disadvantages; the first being that the brine solution gets diluted with the water in the freeboard spacing and second that the calcium/Magnesium gets forced from the top depleted resin down through the bottom where the resin still is good.

But then, I might be high.

When back to normal use, the water is downflow, will not fluidize the bed.

Also, if you do a short backwash after a regen, you mix the "polished" bottom resin into the rest. Read somewhere that this was more efficient.

Good post BTW, I am so looking forward to tomorrow morning.

Yea, that is where the debate is. Let's break it up a bit. A DF system has four cycles; Backwash, Brine pull, Rapid rinse, and Brine fill. Upflow systems are supposed to be as such: Brine pull, Rapid rinse, and Brine fill. When the salt ion is adsorbed onto the resin, the resin releases the elements. The point of backwash is to lift the bed and release all the big particles out. If you have an upflow system, the water SHOULD be flowing through the distributor tube and up through the resin which is supposed to eliminate the need for backwash. Also, systems are not designed to do be one in the same. They really can't be. Its has to be either or. When a system pulls brine in, there is no pump, it is a vaccum pull. That vacuum goes either UF or DF. It can't be mixed up. Let's say if you were running north and I was running south on the same path that was surrounded by a one man tunnel, we would just collide. The water flow must match the valve.m otherwise it simply would not work unless the brine was pumped in.

As far as it being efficient. People don't understand that a household can pull up to 8-10 gpm. That water has minimal contact time with the resin. So the whole system is saturated regardless. Upflow or Down flow. Upfliw brining systems would make sense in light of cleaning efficiency. Though if brine travels up through a bed, then you have gravity fighting the cleaning and hardness and iron sits on top. A DF system on the other hand, if the brine solution is saturated through the bed on down, the calcium and iron flow down through the system and out. Remember if it does decide to cling back onto the resin, then you still have the brine flowing through for approximately 45 minutes to maintain cleanliness. Like I said, it is debatable , its just a matter of choice. If the water is tested properly and the proper equipment is installed, you should have no issues. Sorry I'm long winded but I deal with this daily. To much knowledge to just post small posts.
 

ByteMe

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It must be me, I think my clack ws125 is downflow for regular use and upflow only for brining.

If not?!?!?!? I need to make some setting changes.
 

Bannerman

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I set at 50k grains, 10gpg hardness, 6lb/cuft dosing. 5000 gallons between regens baby! Oh yea!
Why did you choose such a large unit for a relatively small amount of hardness? Assuming no iron, and 2 people averaging 60 gal/pp/day, there is enough capacity at your current settings for 41 days between regenerations. That is too long.

The link R4 posted, mentions increased efficiency with up-flow brining but as it is most often done incorrectly, it is now rarely performed.

I expect some of the increased efficiency is due to the brine having longer contact with the resin before being rinsed to drain. You can likely achieve a similar increase in efficiency with down-flow brining by installing a smaller venturi and extending the brine/slow rinse cycle time.

Tech1, the OP stipulated up-flow brining, not up-flow service.
 

ByteMe

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Ummm, because I can?!?

3 people in house, soon to be 4.

Looks like I will change settings tonight to downflow brining. Any suggestions on settings?

10gpg compensated hardness, .01 ppm iron, .056 mag.

If needed will set DO to 21 or so.
 

Bannerman

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Three people will give 27 days between regenerations, 4 people - 20 days. Without iron, 28-30 days will not usually present a problem unless there is sediment, dirt, rust etc.

Presence of iron normally requires more frequent regenerations with a larger amount of salt but since you have a low amount of iron, it may not be an issue particularly if using a resin cleaner on a regular basis.

The brine/slow rinse setting should be 4X the time taken to draw the brine from the brine tank. If brine draw takes 15 minutes (usual), the BD/Slow Rinse cycle should total 60 minutes.

Looking to achieve high efficiency, but then setting a reduced DO setting, tosses efficiency out the window.
 

ByteMe

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Dammit, I want high salt and water efficiency, super long in-between regen times, no resin fouling and cheap salt! Get er done!


Edit: also want a naked maid service to perform routine maintenance.
 

ditttohead

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Arnold's maid is looking for a job.
arnold_schwarzeneggers_son_picture_mistress_housekeeper_mildred_patricia_baena.jpg




As to the DF/UF questions, on paper UF is better, in the real world, for the vast majority of applications DF is preferred. I am doing a training seminar on this topic next month, it is over 45 minutes long if anyone wants to attend. :)

FYI, you cant just set the valves from DF to UF, it also requires some internal parts changes.

I
 

ditttohead

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The next seminar will be at our facility in California. I just had one in Texas, and I will be having another in Tennessee soon. Probably New York next, maybe not sure...
 
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