Looking for advice and assistance.... pls

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JustaDIYer

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A quick background, bought a house about 2.5 years ago (3 people, 3 full baths, 2 story on private well) and it had an older Kenmore softener which was working as far as i could tell. It quit end of last year. After countless hours debating what to get and convincing my wife (sort of) to spend a little more and get something other than a box store softener, i settled on a Fleck 5600sxt 80k with sst60 resin. Installed it in Jan. '15 myself and set per assistance from online company i purchased it from. And to note, i do have a RO for drinking water in kitchen.

My water test results from an in-home softener company that i called are as follows:
  • Hardness - 32gpg
  • Iron - 3.5ppm
  • not sure on pH (i'm going to get that checked in next day or so)
  • flow rate - about 10-12gpm (per my septic/well inspector i had before purchasing the house, i'm going to recheck in next day or so as well)
Softener settings:
H = 75 (originally at 50 but wasn't soft and was getting smell, so i bumped it up)
BW = 20 (was 10 originally, had advice to increase to 20 because of 80k size)
BD = 55
BW = ? (forgot now that I'm writing this)
BF = 24 (timed it to get 14" of water in brine well, per recommendation)

and using iron out salt all the time

So, all seemed to be going ok till last week when strong metal smell and the dishwasher dishes came out nasty! Diagnoses was it wasn't drawing brine. Got it somewhat drawing and seemed to fix the issue (although wasn't drawing full amount of brine). Then found the injector screen was clogged with red 'crud'. Cleaned it with toothpick and water.

So, one guys recommendations: it's iron bacteria and you need to chlorinate your well, won't fix issue for good, might get couple months or a year. And install a chlorination system for a full time fix.

Another guy tells me: It's not iron bacteria, just iron from water clogging it up. And he said DON'T chlorinate the well while using iron out salt, will emit dangerous gas, and just install iron filter. This guy did test water and tap water was like 3gpg hard with very little tint of iron; RO was clean with TDS around 30. (these were taken after i had it somewhat working and before i ran a regen with totally clean injector screen)

(I did research iron bacteria and looking in two of my toilet tanks, i don't have a slimy build up on my tank sides or an accumalation in the corners. So, i'd say not iron bacteria. )

So, ran a regen last night with clean screen, brine drew as expected down to a couple inches after cycle and refilled as before. Too early to tell water difference.

So..... my questions;
  1. Are my settings close?
  2. Should i install an iron filter? If so, recommendations? Or do i just periodically clean the injector screen and valve?
  3. What salt should i be using? There is a ResCare system in the brine well, just not filled currently.

I'm sure i'll have more questions. I appreciate your input.
 

Bannerman

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The Fleck 5600 valve is rated for up to a 12" diameter resin tank. A 12" tank is sized for 64K grains (2 cu/ft) whereas your 80K system contains 2.5 cu/ft which should be a 13" tank. The SXT designation refers to the digital control.

3.5 ppm of iron is considerable. Softeners, while they can remove iron, are not efficient at doing so as each ppm to be removed, requires increasing the hardness setting by an additional 4 grains of hardness. Your 32 gpg actual hardness, would need to be set on the softener as 46 grains of hardness. Any manganese to be removed would require an additional 2 grains per ppm.

As iron is present, your salt setting could not be as efficient as that permissible if iron was not being removed.

The iron cleaners including those in salt, contain an acid to remove iron deposits from the softening resin. Chlorine and an acid should never mix as deadly chlorine gas is produced.

It is preferable to remove iron before softening. I suspect your resin maybe fouled so a cleaning treatment with Iron-Out, Super Iron-Out or Rescare should be performed.

I also suspect the unit is not regenerating with enough salt to restore the capacity that is programmed. Each cu/ft of resin requires 15 lbs of salt to restore 30K grains/cu.ft. Your 2.5 cu/ft unit would require 37.5 lbs of salt each regeneration to provide 75K of capacity. That is poor salt efficiency. Efficiency can be substantially increased by setting a lower capacity and reducing the brine fill time.

Each 1 cu/ft of resin will provide 20K grains when regenerated with 6 lbs of salt so your unit could provide 50K grains with only 15 lbs of salt. Unfortunately, as it is removing iron, you cannot use the most efficient setting and require more frequent regenerations. Until a dedicated iron filter can be installed, you may want to set the C to 50 but set the salt to 8 lbs/cu ft or 20 lbs for your unit.

The brine fill is not set by inches of water in the brine tank but by gallons. Near the unit's drain connection should be a label which indicates a BLFC number. This is the precise rate of water flow to refill the brine tank. If your BLFC (Brine Line Flow Control) number is 0.25 gpm, then that rate times the refill time will equal the gallons into the brine tank. Each gallon will dissolve 3 lbs of salt. If your BLFC number is 0.25, then you would require a BF of 27 minutes to give 6.75 gals to dissolve 20.25 lbs of salt.
 
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Reach4

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  1. Should i install an iron filter? If so, recommendations? Or do i just periodically clean the injector screen and valve?
  2. What salt should i be using? There is a ResCare system in the brine well, just not filled currently.
Yes, you should have a backwashing iron filter. The Catalox/Katalox Light media is top notch. While a chlorine injection system can work nicely, it is more complex including a contact tank and an activated charcoal backwashing filter to remove the precipitated iron and to remove the chlorine. Some skip the contact tank, but that is not a good idea.

Then the salt will be not so critical. I like the Morton pellets. If I were trying to limp by using the softener to remove iron, I would use the Morton iron treatment salt pellets.

I suggest you search this forum for "iron out" brine tank for discussions on cleaning your resin. That is cheaper than ResCare. Gary Slusser has been a proponent of using the softener for iron removal, and you will find he describes the frequent care needed. The backwashing iron filter is much nicer if you can swing it. You will get better water with less work and less salt.

Iron Out is the same as Super Iron Out.
 
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Reach4

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So, all seemed to be going ok till last week when strong metal smell and the dishwasher dishes came out nasty! Diagnoses was it wasn't drawing brine. Got it somewhat drawing and seemed to fix the issue (although wasn't drawing full amount of brine). Then found the injector screen was clogged with red 'crud'. Cleaned it with toothpick and water.
Couple more comments:
I think you should go through the steps of a rebuild, even if you only clean rather than replace parts. I would lightly lubricate rubber seals and O-rings as you reassemble. I am not a pro, and maybe you should get a rebuild kit.

Also, I would sanitize my well and whole plumbing system. http://www.moravecwaterwells.com/index.php/maintainance/disinfection-and-testing is the method I like. I would bypass the softener from the strongest chlorine, but I would give it some chlorine too -- maybe once the chlorine level has dropped to 5 or 10 ppm vs the higher levels that you use in the well and pipes. I bought high range chlorine test strips and narrow range pH paper.

For the flooding volume, I used a garbage can lined with a pair of drum liners. That is good for about 30 gallons. I have been thinking that a full motion water bed mattress would be interesting if you want flooding volumes of 100 to 200 gallons. I also think you could use a neighbor's water hose by mixing some liquid bleach simultaneously to running the flooding volume into the casing.
 

_John_

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at 3.5ppm iron and 10-12 gpm available for backwash, I'd look at a 1.5-2 cu. ft. Katalox Light backwashing filter. Not knowing some of the other chemistry of your water, air injection or a chlorine rinse at backwash may help it out some (or may not be needed).
 

ditttohead

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Agreed, Katalox Light is the media to use, the 5600 will not be adequate to backwash it. A 7000 is probably the valve preference. Using a softener for iron reduction is not a good long term solution. The excessive salt usage, higher/less efficient salt settings, regular cleaning of the resin, more expensive chemical salt, etc. A simple iron reduction system is a great choice.
 

JustaDIYer

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Thx....

An iron filter w/ Katalox media is the consensus. I see sizing is based on my well's pump rate, is that right? Why isn't it based on how much iron is in my water?

Where is the best place to shop for such a filter?

As for draining this type of filter; i'm guessing i don't want to drain it to my sump as i do my softener (all that iron will trash my pump, correct?). My main septic line is right above my softener, but what is the height limitation to drain up? And how would i T into that line?

To answer a previous question, my water didn't have any coliform, arsenic or nitrates from my initial well inspection . But i do have a slight sulfur smell from only one upstairs bathroom sink faucet.... why would only one faucet have the smell and not the adjoining shower or tub?
 

Reach4

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An iron filter w/ Katalox media is the consensus. I see sizing is based on my well's pump rate, is that right? Why isn't it based on how much iron is in my water?
It is not based on the pump rate. The pump is before the pressure tank. It is based partly on the water use rate. http://watchwater.de/Backup/systems/kl_system.php However your water use flow rate might be a similar 8 or 12 GPM number. I just played with the calculator. I initially found it to be very insensitive to the level of iron. I used 8 GPM. It did not change the suggestion when I changed between 0.4 and 4 ppm of iron. I then thought trick was to enter the numbers with a comma (such as 0,4), instead of a decimal point, in the German way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark#Countries_using_Arabic_numerals_with_decimal_comma That has not worked out for me either, as I try changing the numbers. It seems to be sensitive to the data entry in a way I don't feel I have mastered yet. Let us know what you learn. I see it lets you use different units, such as GPM.

I don't have a suggested supplier for you. I see that at least some of the people selling the packages include an Asian controller. I would prefer a Fleck 7000 for this, and I would expect a price premium.
 
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Bannerman

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1) Iron filters and most other types of backwashing filters, usually contain heavy media. Softener resin is relatively light weight and therefore, does not require much gpm to backwash it compared to any heaver media. Backwash rates must match or even exceed the manufacturer's specifications.

Katalox Lite, is less heavy than other iron removal media and requires less gpm than other iron removal media. K-L is still heaver than softener resin and requires more gpm than a softener. Each increase in tank diameter (larger capacity) requires progressively more gpm to backwash.

While you have a considerable size softener and would prefer to match the same flow capacity with an iron filter, that is not usually practical. Your pump and water system's continuous gpm will be the determining factor as to how large a filter will be supported. If the filter's media is not backwashed sufficiently, it is prone to fouling and rapid failure.

Here is a link to information on flow rates and backwashing requirements for various media types: http://www.purewaterproducts.com/articles/backwash-chart

2) Water softeners and backwashing filters rely on water pressure for regeneration and backwashing. The drain line is pressurized and therefore is able to drain above the height of the device.
 
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Reach4

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I would add that the GPM of the pump at 30 PSI at the filter would be the number that matters to the filter, and not the GPM at 50 or 60 PSI.

http://watchwater.at/wp-content/themes/watch_water/download/KATALOX_LIGHT_US_4Pages.pdf says that "8-10 gpm/ft2" is sufficient. (ft2 stands for square feet)

A 10x54 media tank has area of 78.5398 square inches.
That is 0.5454152777 ft2... so

Using 0.54 ft2 to compute, 5 GPM of backwash gives 9.259 gpm/ft2.

More backwash than the specified minimum is probably better.
 
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_John_

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I would add that the GPM of the pump at 30 PSI at the filter would be the number that matters to the filter, and not the GPM at 50 or 60 PSI.

http://watchwater.at/wp-content/themes/watch_water/download/KATALOX_LIGHT_US_4Pages.pdf says that "8-10 gpm/ft2" is sufficient. (ft2 stands for square feet)

A 10x54 media tank has area of 78.5398 square inches.
That is 0.5454152777 ft2... so

Using 0.54 ft2 to compute, 5 GPM of backwash gives 9.259 gpm/ft2.

More backwash than the specified minimum is probably better.

and I used the 10-12 gpm "flow rate" and assumed this was a max number you got at that house from the well. If that is really all the well continuously pumps, I wouldn't put over a 12" tanked, 2 cu. ft. unit on it. Even down to 1.5 cu. ft. he likely services enough water for the softener to "clean up" the rest of the iron (if the iron filter still wouldn't handle it all), and the sediment filtration alone usually is good even exceeding the service flow rate for iron/sulfur removal.

I install 9 gpm flow control buttons on 12" (7.5's on 10" tanks) units we install.

Per manufacturer specs, you could backwash a 14"x65" tank (3.5 cu. ft.) with 11 gpm.

Again, assuming 10-12 gpm is all you have to work with, you could do 2 parallel 1.5 cu. ft. units (which would leave you some water to the house if needed while one backwashed), but then you may be getting into more money than you want to spend.
 
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JustaDIYer

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thanks for the replies... albeit I think I'm more confused now.

I'll check my flow rate tonight by seeing how long the pump runs and then measuring how much water i can draw until the pumps runs again. And i hope to get my pH measured tonight as well (if that's important).

When you say flow rate you're talking while in service? Since my system is 10gpm, i need a filter that can supply 10gpm while filtering water for use? (light bulb moment i think) And a 14" tank supplies 10gpm flow rate for USE and needs 10gpm flow rate for backwash?

so a 14"x 65" tank is 4cu.ft. resin! Wow, well maybe my flow rate isn't that high and can go smaller filter.

Still looking for a Fleck valve with Katalox media.
 

Bannerman

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The flow rate indicated on the chart, is the maximum continuous flow the media is capable of supporting while fully removing iron. While that flow maybe physically exceeded if your plumbing system is capable, some iron will potentially bleed through. The more the media's max gpm is exceeded, the more iron will potentially bleed through.

Katalox has a reasonably high flow rate compared to say BIRM.

Flow rate needed to backwash the filter is not only determined by the pump's continuous output but also the plumbing lines, elbows, valves etc feeding the filter as well as the drain capacity leaving the filter.
 

Reach4

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There are two flow rates. The backwash is one. The other is the service rate, yes. They just happen to be similar.

14 inch tank is 1.07 ft2, and should probably have a 10.7 flow rate during backwash. A little less will still meet the spec.

What do you know about your pump and your water depth? Based on that, we could predict how much the pump can supply continuously.

I'll check my flow rate tonight by seeing how long the pump runs and then measuring how much water i can draw until the pumps runs again. And i hope to get my pH measured tonight as well (if that's important).
That measurement you are considering is going to be tricky. Maybe consider something like this:
  1. Measure the drawdown by manually flipping the pressure switch on (don't get shocked -- use a stick or insulated tool.) The pump will stop.
  2. With a known bucket, see how much water you can draw before the pump kicks on again. Record that amount. No hurry (but forbid flushing toilets etc during your measurement). Do not record the time that it takes. If you get 2.4 5-gallon buckets, that is 12 gallons.
  3. Start the pump again if you have drawn water since it clicked off.
  4. With a group of helpers, on loud command, start the timer, turn on the showers, sink, and whatever simultaneous loads you want to measure.
  5. When the pump kicks back on , immediately stop the timer and note the elapsed seconds.
  6. Take the (gallons from step 2) * 60/(seconds from step 5). That is the GPM you were drawing.
If you sometimes exceed the designed usage flow, nothing really bad happens. During that 2 minutes, it is still going to be much better than what you have now. Remember to plumb the outside faucets from before the iron+sulfur filter.

It is unlikely that your pH is not in the right range. The right range is pretty broad, and water outside of that range would have caused problems.
 

JustaDIYer

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Well details from my inspection report:
Depth: 89'
Casing: 5" plastic
Pump: Submersible

The following is from when the well was drilled;
Static Water Level: 20'
Pumping Level: 60' after 2hours pumping at 12gpm
Casing Depth: 85'
Pump: 3/4HP; 230 volts;
 

Reach4

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The chart shows a 3/4 and 10 GPM and a 15 GPM. Your pumping test, if that was from the same pump rather than a test pump would have been about where the empty orange boxes are. The yellow boxes would be your expected area of operation. I think the ability to provide GPM for backwash would be the numbers in the 30 PSI rows.
img_1.png
 

JustaDIYer

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ok, so looking at my inspection sheet, i see the pump's capacity is rated at 10gpm. And are those PSI numbers my switch settings? if so, it's in the yellow range, i believe my settings are 38psi and 60psi. And the inspectors test was 12gpm.

So, i'll need a 11gpm backwash filter? Any links on where i can find such a filter with Fleck valve or any other top quality valve?
 

Reach4

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ok, so looking at my inspection sheet, i see the pump's capacity is rated at 10gpm. And are those PSI numbers my switch settings? if so, it's in the yellow range, i believe my settings are 38psi and 60psi. And the inspectors test was 12gpm.
The numbers are what GPM the pump can deliver at different water pressures and depth down the surface of the water. The story that I read from the numbers is that your pump could supply at least 13 GPM of water for backwashing if you needed it, even if the water level in the well had dropped. You would not use that number for sizing your filter except to put an upper limit on how big the filter could be.

The recommended lower limit on the size of your filter would be based on your water usage GPM rate. If you go over what you plan, there would be some leakage of iron through the filter, but it would still be greatly less than what you currently have. The softener could probably take care of the iron in those occasions. That would be the number you would plug into that calculator that I could not get working properly. I suspect 8 GPM would be a good number for that if you don't use high-flow showers and run simultaneous tub fills. Maybe 10 GPM if you want to add margin, but I would think those numbers even if your pump could deliver 20 GPM.
 

JustaDIYer

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Ok, i think i understand. So a 8gpm flow/backwash rate filter is what i should look for (w/ Katalox media and Fleck valve)? No high flow shower heads and only 1 tub in house that gets used. Now just have to find one in my price range.

So, if/when the filter gets installed, what softener settings will change? Obviously Hardness will go down to 35. BF as well (currently it's at 24min @ 0.5gpm rate)? BD?

And should a thorough softener resin clean be done too? Use ResCare? Or Iron Out? I'm going to stop using the iron out salt as well if the filter gets installed.
 
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