Need some advise on submersible pump

[TAB2]

So I am renovating a house that has sat vacant for about 8 years. The well is 150' deep and you don't hit water until 80' down from the well cap. It had a jet pump on it that had not likely worked for the last 15 years as they at some point did get county water out there. Anyway I want to use the well. I pulled the old pump up and all of the water line and etc which was real fun by myself.

I have no idea what the draw down is on this well once you start pumping water. Hopefully it has a decent refresh rate but this house is only going to be used on the weekends, etc for hunting, etc. It is a 3 bedroom rancher with two full bathrooms, kitchen, 2 outside faucets and of course water heater and wash machine hookup. I don't ever see watering the lawn. But might use outside faucet to wash off a vehicle or something.

Looking at the submersible pump charts, if I am reading them correctly it seems that if I am going to set the pump at 140', which is 10' off the bottom of the well, that I should be getting a 3/4 to 1hp 10 or 15gpm pump. I am going to get a Franklin. I gave all this info to a local well company and they wanted to put a 1/2hp 10 gpm pump in and a 25 gallon xtroll pressure tank. I don't think the 1/2hp is big enough with a pump set at 140'. The house was built in the 70's and has an outside well house. I am not going to the expense of digging up the concrete floor in the wellhouse and then disturbing the casing to put in a pitless adaptor. The well company said the same and said to just put a cap on it and run the lines from the cap to the tank and that in the winter I will just need to keep a heat source in the pump house (which is what they did with the jet pump for about 20 years. The water line after it leaves the pressure tank then goes down below the pump house and is buried 3 feet deep all the way to the foundation wall and then into the basement.

So my question is given this info, should I get a 3/4 hp pump at 10 or 15gpm or a 1hp at 10 or 15gpm. I think a 20 gpm would be too much, especially with a 25 gallon pressure tank. The next size up pressure tank by xtrol is likely too tall for my well house and I won't be able to close the roof on it. Also, whether the pump is a 3/4 or a 1hp which is going to be the best for water volume into the house, the 10 gpm or the 15 gpm? Or will there be that much difference? Also, should I be running a 30/50 or 40/60 pressure switch given these specs?

I just ran 230 out to the pump house so I am all good on that. I also just replaced all of the copper waterlines with new copper. So the plumbing is all new.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Reach4]

With a 4 inch casing I would go with the 5, 7, or 10 GPM J-class because they about 3.75 inch diameter. I think the higher GPM are larger.

It is not the depth to the pump but rather the depth to the water that counts. Still, you want to have some water delivered when the water level is almost down to the pump, and that will not be a problem.

You could be looking at a 1/2 HP 7 GPM pump, but even that is too much pump for that size of pressure tank. http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC7025_04_14_WXTsizingCard.pdf
An undersized pressure tank will probably last many years, but a bigger one would be better.

You might consider a 1/2 HP or 3/4 HP 10 GPM pump with a http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_psidekick.html if you are short for space and want a bigger GPM.

30-50 or 40-60 PSI should both be fine.

Figure about 3 GPM or less for a normal shower, tho most showers are limited to less.
Note that the 1/2 HP 7 GPM delivers 9 or 10 gallons from 100 ft.

 

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[PumpMd]

Franklin WaterHorse pumps can pump more water, dont go past the last grey/blue square on the far right of the chart because the pump is falling off & that is Franklin telling you that you need to go the next size larger pump. Look at the wire size chart for total footage on 1 1/2 15gpm pump.

http://franklinwater.com/media/110458/MH2009_Water_Horse_Catalog_01-14.pdf

I would check out different brands of tanks, to see if you can put a short but bigger diameter tank in your well house, to see if you can find more drawdown out of the tank to match the pump, especially on a 1 1/2hp 15gpm pump.
I have a 3/4hp 10gpm pump set at 145ft/70ft to static water level, I still have plenty of water when my pump can pump the water level down to the pump, when I use it for a long period of time but if you did heavy watering all the time, it would not be good on pump. The 1hp pump can develop more pressure at deeper depths to water & would be the right size pump for heavy water usage.

Low profile tanks is what you are looking for, this is a good example why you always keep your options open to other brands.

http://www.wellmate.com/en-US/product/residential-products/captive-air-tanks/low-profile/

http://www.sta-rite.com/ResidentialProduct_sr_ws_tk_PS2_S01.aspx

http://www.pentair.com/~/media/files/residential well pressure tank brochure.pdf

 

[Reach4]

It looks like the Water Horse pumps have a narrower area for the sweet spots. If I understand correctly, the squares with no numbers are pressures at which you should avoid operating in much. The 1/2 HP 10 GPM with the pressure switch at 35-55 PSI looks like maybe a good match. (most pressures switches are adjustable.)

I see the Water Horse pumps are the more standard diameter: 3.9 inches, which would be good for a 5 inch casing.
.

 

[PumpMd]

You can still use a 4in pump on 4in casing, we have 4 1/2 and above installed in our area, I come across 4in once in awhile & it got a water horse set back down the well. Reason why I know about the Jclass is because our supply house ran out of water horse on the 1 1/2hp 15gpm pumps, so I found out that the Jclass pumps were not producing as much water as the water horse.

 

[Reach4]

I have a 4 inch steel casing, so have been looking at J-class 3200 series and Goulds Streamline. It would be nice if I had a PVC casing instead.

 

[PumpMd]

Galvanized cased well, with just a steel surface casing?

 

[TAB2]

I fogot to say this is a 6" steel casing so no issue with a 4" pump. It just had the standard well cap on it for a vertical set jet pump that sat on top of the wellcap and now I am converting to submersable. If the pump is set down at 140' it still seems based on the chart that since it will be pumping from down at 140 feet that 1/2 hp is too small. So if I go with a 3/4hp 10gpm pump what size pressure tank do you think, like 35 gallon? I want to keep it simple and as low cost as possible since this place will only be used on the weekends. Would the 1hp 10 or 15 gpm pump create too many headaches as there seem to be some posts on here that the larger pumps can wear out the pressure tanks faster, cause cavitation, etc? I know there are some lower profile pressure tanks but everything I ready or folks I talked to around here just kept saying the xtrol tank is the best. I have like 35" height limitation in my pump house.

 

[Reach4]

Galvanized cased well, with just a steel surface casing?

My casing is galvanized, but the galvanizing is significantly gone. There is a thin rust coating. Wall thickness 1/4 inches, so no danger of rusting through anytime soon. The well folks said there was some catching of the trimline pump when pulling it, and suggested putting in an SQ. I chose to risk having them put the nice shiny stainless 1K00X (2000) date code Signature 2000 Sta-rite pump back into service after its 12 years in the ground.

TAB2, your 6 inch casing is nice. That means you could drop chlorine pellets to the bottom to help make sanitizing easier and faster.

 

[Valveman]

3/4HP, 10 gpm or 1HP, 15-20 gpm with a Pside-Kick kit. Then you don't have to worry about space, tank size, pump or tank wear, and you will have constant pressure as well.

 

[PumpMd]

I fogot to say this is a 6" steel casing so no issue with a 4" pump. It just had the standard well cap on it for a vertical set jet pump that sat on top of the wellcap and now I am converting to submersable. If the pump is set down at 140' it still seems based on the chart that since it will be pumping from down at 140 feet that 1/2 hp is too small. So if I go with a 3/4hp 10gpm pump what size pressure tank do you think, like 35 gallon? I want to keep it simple and as low cost as possible since this place will only be used on the weekends. Would the 1hp 10 or 15 gpm pump create too many headaches as there seem to be some posts on here that the larger pumps can wear out the pressure tanks faster, cause cavitation, etc? I know there are some lower profile pressure tanks but everything I ready or folks I talked to around here just kept saying the xtrol tank is the best. I have like 35" height limitation in my pump house.

If you have room for a bigger tank to match the 15 gpm rate (15gal or bigger drawdown) but I don't think you have the space. If you are having troubles with space in the well house, then use valveman's CSV, which would allow you to have that bigger pump.

 

[PumpMd]

This is why they are the Cadillac of the tanks & they back it up with a 7year warranty.

 

[PumpMd]

My casing is galvanized, but the galvanizing is significantly gone. There is a thin rust coating. Wall thickness 1/4 inches, so no danger of rusting through anytime soon. The well folks said there was some catching of the trimline pump when pulling it, and suggested putting in an SQ. I chose to risk having them put the nice shiny stainless 1K00X (2000) date code Signature 2000 Sta-rite pump back into service after its 12 years in the ground.

TAB2, your 6 inch casing is nice. That means you could drop chlorine pellets to the bottom to help make sanitizing easier and faster.

Keep trees away from your galvanized cased well, we find that the tree's roots, will find a way into your well. I had one posted on Letsrunum, showing lots of roots in a customer well, that we found when pulling the pump. I found the picture.

 

[TAB2]

So without a csv what is the smallest pressure tank I can get away with on a 15gpm? Is a 3/4 hp 10 gpm pump going to be able to build up 50 psi from 140' down?

 

[Reach4]

Is a 3/4 hp 10 gpm pump going to be able to build up 50 psi from 140' down?

Yes, and it could build 60 PSI from 140 down. It won't pump as much water at that pressure and depth, but that may be good. At that depth you are running out of water. If the pump pumps a little slower, maybe that will slow your use a tad rather than hard running out of water. You would seldom be in that condition.

So suppose you use that 3/4 hp 10 gpm Water Horse pump at 40-60PSI. Suppose the water has fallen to 140 ft. And suppose you have 2 showers, the washing machine, and the dishwasher, and more going. This draws 12.2 gallons for an hour solid. What happens? The only thing that happens is that the water pressure drops to 30 PSI. You would be unlikely to notice the difference. There is no glitch in the water supply. No screaming shower users. Toilet takes an extra 5 seconds to fill. The pump would be running continuously, but that will not hurt the pump at all. And those are extreme usage and water level conditions. J-series would be about the same, but it would only deliver 11 GPM at 30 PSI, and it can keep that up for hours if the well does not run out of water. That is a lot.

Smallest tank? Odds are you could go for many years without a failure with the small tank you named, but things would last longer if you could keep the cycling lower. Did you follow the CSV/psidekick stuff? A search will find more discussions than you can consume.

 

[PumpMd]

You need a minute run time or better between cycles, is what Franklin wants on their motors. The 3/4hp 10gpm Water Horse, going back to the chart that reach4 posted about the water horse, it will give you 8.3gpm and it is still on the grey/blue square, 20 more feet it's dropping off, so Franklin is telling you to go to the next size larger pump past 140ft to water.

 

[Reach4]

The 3/4hp 10gpm Water Horse, going back to the chart that reach4 posted about the water hotse, it will give you 8.3gpm

I think 10.6 would be the number to quote if using 40/60 PSI. The amount the pump can deliver just before it is ready to turn off is not important IMO. The amount that you could consume continuously should be based on the lower pressure number, I think, and maybe even a lower pressure than that as I suggest in reply #15.

And still, it is unlikely this well is ever going to get down close to 140, and if it does, the well recovery capacity will be the limiting factor I suspect.

 

[PumpMd]

I think 10.6 would be the number to quote if using 40/60 PSI. The amount the pump can deliver just before it is ready to turn off is not important IMO. The amount that you could consume continuously should be based on the lower pressure number, I think, and maybe even a lower pressure than that as I suggest in reply #15.

And still, it is unlikely this well is ever going to get down close to 140, and if it does, the well recovery capacity will be the limiting factor I suspect.

If you use 40-60, then go with a 1hp because the 3/4hp is falling off at 140ft to water but if your well produces enough to keep your water level high, then its ok with the 3/4hp pump.

 

[TAB2]

If you use 40-60, then go with a 1hp because the 3/4hp is falling off at 140ft to water but if your well produces enough to keep your water level high, then its ok with the 3/4hp pump.

.....
Ok thanks for all of that info. So let's talk about the pressure. With this set up should I go with 30/50 or 40/60? What are the pros and cons for one over the other?

On the xtrol tanks there is a wx-205 that is a 34 gallon tank with a 10.5 gallon drawdown at 30/50 and 9.1 gallons at 40/60 which should give 1 min run timee

 

[Reach4]

If you use 40-60, then go with a 1hp because the 3/4hp is falling off at 140ft to water but if your well produces enough to keep your water level high, then its ok with 3/4hp.

I respectfully disagree, because the well would only be at -140 ft of water in unusual conditions. Most of the time there will be much higher water level. But there is merit to both. I still think a 1/2 HP would be quite sufficient in reality.

Tab2, a submersible is much more efficient then a jet pump. So if the jet pump was 1.5 HP, I expect you would get more water from a 3/4 submersible than the jet pump.

It's not like deciding if 160 HP in your car is enough or should you go for the 250 HP engine. It could be if you were thinking to use the increased pumping capacity to put in a 2 head plus 3 jet shower .

I would go 40/60 switch. If you want to change that setting later, turn the big nut in the Pumptrol pressure switch. Do read about the air precharge for your pressure tank.