Options for low yield well pumping into storage tank

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garywil

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I recently purchased a house that has a well for its water supply. It turns out that the well is rather low yield. (We've run out of water several times without using a lot of water.) So I decided to install a 2500 gal. storage tank and have the well pump into the storage tank. The well has a Grundfos controller, and after some research I decided I should install a SymCom 232-Insider PumpSaver to protect the pump against a dry well condition. Since the well will be pumping into a storage tank, I also need some way to turn off the well pump whenever the storage tank is full. It seems that I have 3 options:

1) install a float switch in the tank that removes power to the controller when the tank is full,

2) install a float valve in the tank that closes the inlet when the tank is full and install a pressure switch in the water line to the tank that removes power to the controller when the pressure goes high because the inlet valve is closed, or

3) install a float valve as in option 2, but let the PumpSaver turn the pump off when it detects a dead-head condition.

(Attached is a file that contains drawings of these 3 options.)

Here's the pros and cons as I see them for these options:

Option 1. This seems to be the typical way to turn off a pump when the storage tank is full, but it requires running a power line to the tank. In my case the run would be about 30 ft. I know these switches are very reliable and are not likely to develop a leak, but I've never been fond of running power where it has the potential for coming into contact with water. Also, it seems that typically one leg of the 230V power to the pump is run through the switch, and while that will turn off the pump, it still leaves one leg hot. It seems that a better option would be for the switch to control a relay that switches off both legs of the power to the well, but that requires adding a relay to the system and a way to power the coil on the relay.

Option 2. Using a float valve doesn't require running power to the tank, and the pressure switch can be put near the controller and will switch both legs of the power to the well, but I haven't run across anyone using this approach, so there must be some reason why this is a bad idea. Also, the pressure switch would have to be set so that it turns off the well before the PumpSaver detects a dead-head condition and turns it off.

Option 3. This doesn't require a pressure switch, but now for as long as the float valve is closed the PumpSaver is going to be turning the pump on after the timeout period, detecting a dead-head condition, and turning the pump back off until the next timeout period. I don't know if cycling the pump like this is bad for the pump or not.

Also, for options 1 or 2, do I turn off power to the controller/PumpSaver, or do I turn off the power coming out of the controller/PumpSaver and leave the controller energized? I know turning off power to the controller isn't a problem and is typically how this is done, but I don't know if having the PumpSaver installed in the controller should change this.

Any comments on these options or suggestions for different approaches?
 

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  • Well Diagram-Options.pdf
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Valveman

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Here is a drawing of your option #1 with the wiring for the relay as you describe.
LOW YIELD WELL_ CENTRIFUGAL_PK1A.jpg
 

Valveman

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Here is a drawing of your option #2, which also allows the well to work directly to the house if/when needed. I do not recommend using your option #3 as deadheading the pump for control is not a good idea.
LOW YIELD WELL_and storage with two PK1A.jpg
 

Craigpump

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I saw this yesterday. People just bought a house, haven't even unpacked and they're out of water. There is a 300 gallon tank with a booster system in the basement. The booster is a sub drive at a 45 degree angle in the tank, so that isn't making use of all the water stored. The 300' well makes .15 yes .15 gpm which is 216 gallons per day. The average water usage per person is 75 gallons per day x 4 people = 300 gallons. You can see that after the first day they are screwed, the well just won't keep up.

I would reconsider your idea and put the money into drilling the well deeper or increasing the yield through hydro fracking, jetting, or what ever is successful in your area...
 

Valveman

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I agree with craigpump. A low producing well must still make enough to satisfy the house demand. 216 gallons per day won't do it. But if the well will even make 1 GPM that is 1440 gallons per day. Here is a drawing of a sub in the storage tank, which I think is a good idea. But you need to use a Cycle
Sensor instead of a pumptec when using a CSV, because the low amps caused by the CSV will make the pumptec think you are out of water when you are not.
LOW YIELD WELL_SUB_PK1A.jpg
 

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You can also lay the sub on its side like in this drawing, so you can utilize all the water in the storage tank. Just make sure to use a flow inducer shroud over the sub to make the water cool the motor properly.

Horizontal Bracket for Sub.jpg
 

garywil

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Thanks for all the suggestions. The system already has a Walrus-TQ 1HP on-demand pressure pump that is gravity fed from the storage tank and provides water to the house, so I don't need a submersible pump in the storage tank. I'm hoping that once the system is operational with the storage tank, it will be able to keep up with our demands. We'll see....
 

Ballvalve

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Use this diagram just for your well. Then use a 1/2hp 10gpm submersible pump inside the storage tank, then take the water line coming out of the submersible pump, hook it back up to your pressure tank & pressure switch, so it can work your house again.

If you have a Franklin motor on your submersible pump, go with a PumpTec
http://franklinwater.com/products/drives-protection/residential/pumptec-family/

That drawing gives me a headache. Also seems like the on and off points are reversed. He never stated the GPM. I'd get him a 2500 gallon tank, and feed it with a dole valve rated for the well. A tethered switch for on and off of the pump. Could do a little pressure tank and a low pressure cut off switch to feed the tank if he wants to go on the cheap. He could feed from that into his little basement tank and utilize his existing pressure pump.
 

Jeremy Harris

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I dont like dole valves, only suggest them if it's their last option.


Any reason for this?

I'm still learning a great deal, but the most useful thing I've learned so far ( and which would have saved me weeks of effort, the the equivalent of several hundred dollars) had I realised sooner that restricting my maximum flow rate below around 10 litres/minute (around 2.6 US gallons/minute) completely stopped my pump from pumping sand. Any flow rate over this risks drawing up sand.

Fitting a flow limiting (not pressure limiting valve) has proved to be a Godsend, as it has solved all my sand problems at a single stroke, removed a lot of complexity from the system (allowing a single borehole pump, rather than two tanks and two pumps) and has generally proved to be the greatest single improvement I've made.

BTW, the flow restrictor I've fitted isn't a dole valve (they seem unobtainable here) but is a similar device with a coarse filter and a cartridge that can be changed to set the flow rate in litre/min over a wide pressure range.
 
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Jeremy Harris

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Thanks, particularly about the back pressure. I've heard some here say that some back pressure is good for the pump, though, as it reduces end thrust on the impellers. This is what puzzled me about the comment.

The hole pumps way over 10 litres min, I think it was test pumped at around 4000 litres/hour (the max pump rating) so there's plenty of water (at least 17 US gals/min) and the level barely dropped, but it draws a lot of sand when pumped at that rate. I won't distract this thread with that problem, as I'm getting a lot of useful advice and help here: https://terrylove.com/forums/index....dvice-please-borehole-supply-in-the-uk.61806/
 

Ballvalve

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Any reason for this?

I'm still learning a great deal, but the most useful thing I've learned so far ( and which would have saved me weeks of effort, the the equivalent of several hundred dollars) had I realised sooner that restricting my maximum flow rate below around 10 litres/minute (around 2.6 US gallons/minute) completely stopped my pump from pumping sand. Any flow rate over this risks drawing up sand.

Fitting a flow limiting (not pressure limiting valve) has proved to be a Godsend, as it has solved all my sand problems at a single stroke, removed a lot of complexity from the system (allowing a single borehole pump, rather than two tanks and two pumps) and has generally proved to be the greatest single improvement I've made.

BTW, the flow restrictor I've fitted isn't a dole valve (they seem unobtainable here) but is a similar device with a coarse filter and a cartridge that can be changed to set the flow rate in litre/min over a wide pressure range.


You bring up a great point. I must have had a brain fart when I allowed a 2 gpm well to pump at 10 gpm for short periods. Caused the clay and sand to drop down to the bottom. Going to restart it at 1 GPM. You can get dole valves online
 

Reach4

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They are great for the use of getting clean water from a well known for producing dirty water.
Are you thinking of the sand separators that go under the pump, or are you thinking of the above-ground type? If the it is down the hole, you still have to get rid of the sand from the well bore at some point, right? If it is one for above ground, the pump still has to deal with the sand.
 

Valveman

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Thanks, particularly about the back pressure. I've heard some here say that some back pressure is good for the pump, though, as it reduces end thrust on the impellers. This is what puzzled me about the comment.

The hole pumps way over 10 litres min, I think it was test pumped at around 4000 litres/hour (the max pump rating) so there's plenty of water (at least 17 US gals/min) and the level barely dropped, but it draws a lot of sand when pumped at that rate. I won't distract this thread with that problem, as I'm getting a lot of useful advice and help here: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pump-and-tank-advice-please-borehole-supply-in-the-uk.61806/

Backpressure IS good for the pump. Letting the pump run wide open with no backpressure is the second worst thing you can do to a pump. The absolutes worst thing is to let the pump cycle on and off while using water.

The most common misconception about pumps is that backpressure is bad for them. It is not. I think the misconception comes from the fact that "throttle, choke, restrict, and hold back" are negative words and therefore people think they adversely affect the pump. In reality anything you can do to increase the run time of a pump is a good thing. Pumps like to run 24/7. The shorter the run times, the shorter the life of the pump. I have used lost of 1,2, and 3 GPM Dole valves on weak producing wells. Many of these pump into large storage tanks and never shut off. It is not uncommon for them to last 15, 20 years or more running 24/7. It is the pumps that continually cycle off and on, or run flat out with no restriction that have the shortest life.

As for the low flow helping with the sand problem, many times it will. If restricting the pump to low flow keeps the sand from entering the well casing that is a good thing. However, many times the sand is still entering the well casing, and the reduced flow rate only keeps the sand from being pumped out of the discharge pipe. Depending on the size and density of the sand, a certain amount of feet per second are required to get it to come out of the well pipe. If the sand is still coming into the well, but the velocity is not high enough to get the sand out the well pipe, it will just float around above the check valve on the pump. When the pump shuts off, this sand can settle on the check valve and prevent the pump from being able to push it open the next time it is started. You will know this is happening when you pull the pump and remove the last joint of pipe, as a long turd of sand will drop at your feet. If there is no sand in the bottom joint of pipe, restricting the flow is probably keeping the sand from entering the casing in the first place, which is a good thing.
 

Jeremy Harris

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Thanks Valveman, that's pretty much how I had it worked out n my head, that the back pressure kept the end load down on the pump impellers, so was better than running the pump with no load at all.

When you're just trying to understand how all this stuff works, so that you can both get a good feel for your own system requirements and equally get a feel when someone is trying to sell you something (usually very expensive) that's needed or not it's good to try and understand as much as you can about this stuff.

I'll admit that when my hole was drilled I hadn't a clue about any of it, and assumed the drillers knew what they were doing. I now know a heck of a lot more since I set out on this "educate yourself about your well" course run at the university of this forum! Right now I'm at the stage where I know enough to be dangerous, so I am quickly getting hold of more knowledge to get past that part..................

This week (weather permitting) is clear the accumulated sand from the bottom of the hole week, provided I get the pipe I need this morning,
 
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MooseMe

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Here is a drawing of your option #2, which also allows the well to work directly to the house if/when needed. I do not recommend using your option #3 as deadheading the pump for control is not a good idea.
View attachment 30098
hi valveman...i am wanting to draw something like this, do you have any idea what software was used to create it?
thanks in advance..
 

CAB5537

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I'm in a situation similar to garywil at the top of this thread. Moved into the house when single, had enough water to function. added a housemate, got by for 12 years then added a 2000 storage tank system with booster pump, have float valves at top of tank and one midway down and shut off protection to protect the submersed pump.

This is ok unless we have visitors, which is enough of a difference to down our reserves. We exist on a razors edge. We just need a little better performance from our system to survive visitors. (we have used the excuse to excuse ourselves from hosting certain guests)

Can I put a check valve between the well head and the storage tank? The water in the pipes between the well head and the tank is almost equal to each input cycle from the well pump.

Thanks all, for your help
 

Reach4

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I'm in a situation similar to garywil at the top of this thread. Moved into the house when single, had enough water to function. added a housemate, got by for 12 years then added a 2000 storage tank system with booster pump, have float valves at top of tank and one midway down and shut off protection to protect the submersed pump.

This is ok unless we have visitors, which is enough of a difference to down our reserves. We exist on a razors edge. We just need a little better performance from our system to survive visitors. (we have used the excuse to excuse ourselves from hosting certain guests)

Can I put a check valve between the well head and the storage tank? The water in the pipes between the well head and the tank is almost equal to each input cycle from the well pump.

I think you are calling the pump down the well the "submersed pump". There should be a check valve at the submersible pump, so a check valve from the well at the cistern should not be needed. Usually there is not a problem adding an extra check valve, and this could be called for to work around a check valve in the well having failed.

I think you have a booster pump of some type in or near the 2000 gallon storage tank that currently provides all of the water pressure to the house.

I suspect you are looking for a way to combine the water from the well pump with the water from the booster pump to simultaneously contribute to sending water to the house. But I am not sure that is what you are asking. What are you asking how to do?
 
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