Are my HVAC guys hacks?

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Giantsean

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Hey All,

Having some (maybe) issues w/ my installers. We went through the rigamarole with the heating side (see my other post if interested) and still have the following conditions:

- air continues to blow cold when the tankless has a DHW call. They say nothing they can do
- both hydro coils in both AH's plumbed backwards (supply goes in the out hole, and vice versa). They say it makes no difference
- installed a Honeywell zone controller best suited for a heat pump. It works but it's always telling me emergency heat is running. They say that's normal

So that's heat. Now tis the season for cooling. I have two TAM7 AH's and the Silver XI (maybe called Gold 13 now.. who can follow this) 16 SEER condensers. 2 down and 2.5 up.

Besides blowing me off about six times, they finally came in and installed the condensers (reason it took time was that they don't do electrical, so I had to... plus I was waiting for an electrical service upgrade). Besides having to do all the high and low voltage myself, and setting all the DIP switches myself (they are not familar w/ Trane/AS but still, you'd figure it's theirs to do), I got both of them working. They also "weighed in" the freon rather than did any sort of readings, but again it works. My fear is that the newer stuff (or stuff other than the crap they may normally work on) is less forgiving.

I still have a few things to go over with them that I discovered. First they slapped in fiberglass filters. I'm sure they are good for airflow, but are they recommended? All I heard was how I could clean them over and over. The bigger PITA is that I found a piece of insulated flex that was connected to the boot, but only the fiberglass was there. not the actual plastic duct. I guess in theory that works, but that seems a bit too hacktastic for my tastes. Not to mention bits of fiberglass blowing at us over time.

Ok sorry I'm venting a little (no pun intended). At least I still owe them a little so I can insist they get this sorted. Worst case there is nothing above that I am incapable of doing myself, but I hired pros because I wanted it done right. Wasn't the most expensive quote but all the things they DON'T do or I have to fix will add up fast.
 

Giantsean

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Add in:

- connecting 8" flex to a 6" boots (2 or 3 times)
- not instlalling the rubber bungs around the freon lines in the AH - the wires went through there instead

Aside from running new flex, what is the actual fix for the short duct problem? is there a correct way to splice runs of flex without just taping them together? Was thinking a metal coupler or something but not sure if that causes any issues hanging in flex
 

Dana

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Yes, they are hacks, no doubt.

Hydro-air coils are counterflow heat exchangers- if you plumb them in reverse both the capacity & efficiency goes down.

There's no good & proper way to air-seal 8" flex to 6" boots- they'll leak air.

Flex ducting is pretty crummy stuff even when installed correctly, and often mis-installed with too many twists & turns. Stretching it with just the insulation sheathing to make the final connection is an abomination. If it's only a few feet short, install hard-piping for that distance rather than trying to splice on a stub of flex duct.

If they weighed the refrigerant based on the math on how much was needed for the volume for the refrigerant line, coils & compressor and it's working, it's probably been done at least sort of right. They almost certainly pumped the system down to pull any moisture out before charging the system. It's normal to run a few temperature readings on the lines to verify that it's in the right range. If it's out of range it may still work, but it may not have the full capacity. If it's low on refrigerant it may frost-up the evaporator coils.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Sounds like weighing in the charge is the only thing they did right. Dana, flex duct is crap but probably 80% of installers! nation wide swear by the stuff and claim they can't make any profit unless they hack the crap in instead of doing insulated sheet metal.
 

Dana

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I get why flex duct is popular with installers, but that doesn't make it a great product, especially when 83% of the 80% who swear by it screw it up almost every time!
 

Tom Sawyer

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I hate the crap.

Hey, oil prices are expected to remain at below $ 55.00 a barell for at least the next five years
 

Dana

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At $55/bbl it means heating with #2 oil will only be 1.5-2x as expensive as heating with gas rather than 2-3x as expensive as heating with natural gas. According to EIA inflation adjusted pricing data, the last year that oil averaged $55/bbl (in 2014 dollars) was in 2004. During that same year #2 heating oil averaged about $2.30/gallon. With a typical 85% burner that's about $20/MMBTU. At that time natural gas retailed at about $1.40/therm. Even in a barely legal 82% burner that's $17 MMBTU, or 18% cheaper. In a condensing furnace or boiler that's $15/MMBTU, or 25% cheaper.

Over the past year crude oil has averaged about $55/bbl, and #2 heating oil has been running in the mid to high $3s, though it has ducked under $3 this summer. Assuming #2 oil averaged $3 at a crude price of $55, that's about $25/MMBTU. In the past year retail natural gas has averaged less than $1.25, delivered (spiking on a per-therm basis in summer, but at a very low number of therms.) Even in an 82% burner that's $15/MMBTU.

The gas glut created by the fracking innovation gas legs, and while natural gas prices will rise as the fracked wells depete, it's not likely to hit the pre-frack average of $1.40/therm retail any time soon, which would require nearly tripling of the wholesale price of natural gas. There is a lot of existing coal-seam gas reserves currently not being exploited that become economic if the wholesale price of gas doubles. Coal seam gas has no liquids fractions to sell at higher margin, making it less economic than gas coming out of shale oil wells, but it's easier/cheaper to develop than dry-gas shales.

The ramp-up of Iran's oil onto the market relative to the ramp rate of demand growth resuming in China & India will determine when the oil price rises again. The "...expected..." $55 price has huge error bars on it. There are many factors that could bring the date of the next price crunch in or push it out. US oil production will begin to fall well within that 5 year window- maybe even by Q4 2015. The only thing that has kept US production from falling before now is that the frackers have to pump existing well as fast as possible to cover their drilling debt service on wells already producing, given how low the price has fallen. Financing new wells in shale country come with huge financial risk, and the junk-bond type interest rates that go along with that. Drilling rates have tanked, and won't/can't resume quickly (for lack of financing) until oil prices go north of $75/bbl for a sustained period. And when it does, the natural gas by-product of newly fracked oil wells will drive gas prices down, as it did previously.

My brother-in-law moved out of Calgary earlier this month due to the worsening prospects of his oil project there. They are hoping to sell to a developer with deeper pockets and longer time horizons rather than hang onto it and hope.
 

Dana

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(With apologies to giantsean for the thread-hijack.)

Tom- looks like US fracked-oil production peaked in April 2015, and is starting to head south (the brown line):

main.png


If world oil prices don't recover quickly, expect to see the light-tight production curve steeping sharply to a real cliff in about a year, along with natural gas production (though not as steeply), and natural gas prices should start to rise a bit.
 

Giantsean

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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but figured this would be a great end cap o_O

So since we've been dealing with a lot of dust (construction ongoing) I figured I'd give the filters a good shake. Hack Inc. put in one of the fiberglass ones downstairs. Washed it off. Nice nice. For the upstairs they also used a... oh wait. They didn't install a filter. I'm sure running filterless with drywall and sawdust swirling all around was just what it needed. These guys are fantastic.
 

Giantsean

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I don't know... he left a bunch of laws, but they got soaked, burned, and then exploded into a fine powder which got sucked into the air handler fan.

Kidding aside... I blew out the fan as much as I could (lesson 1... do not blow compressed air directly onto the coil fins). It was quite an impressive cloud. I then (using lesson 1 as a guide) took a clean paintbrush and brushed off the fins of the coil.

Figure this has been running filterless consistently for the better part of a month and a half now. I can only hope for the best, but considering what was done, has permanent damage been caused?
 

Dana

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Unless there is debris permanently lodged in the coils or the fins are all bent/banged up there isn't likely to be permanent damage. Inspecting the coils with a strong light to verify that they aren't in fact clogged may be in order. Surface brushing only goes so far. Vacuuming them out (in the opposite direction of the air flow) with a soft-bristled attachment would probably clear out most of it, if you find they are still a bit clogged.
 

Giantsean

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Thanks yet again. I had the same thought - to buy a compact vac w/ a brush attachment and give them a good cleaning. The fins are fine (except for a few spots I tried using too much air pressure lol) and the fan rotor spins freely. I guess I probably caught a break too having this happen during a humid summer which created a lot of condensation to wash out much of the dust. I guess on the bright side, I can attest with conviction that yes, my HVAC guys are hacks.

Now to clean out the rest of the house... ugh :(
 

WorthFlorida

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After a month I hope you have the system corrected and cleaned up. As far as the unit w/o a filter it isn't all that bad. After vacuuming and blowing out any dust or dirt, you can run a garden hose in light spray mode to flush the unit. Just be sure it drains. If Cheech and Chong installed the system who knows what they did with a drain.

What you should do is call the manufacture of the system you purchased and find out if they are an authorized dealer. However, for some that ends with a distributor and they may sell it to anyone. At least file a complaint with the BBB.
 

JerryR

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The Orange Big Box store sells an excellent coil cleaner in a spray can. Buy 2, they are cheap.

It comes out as a foam, then it turns to a liquid and it dissolves gunk on coils very well.

Turn of the AC, Open the air handler up, spray it all over the evaporator coils, let it sit for 10 minutes. If you want to spray another application you can then just let it also sit of 10 minutes before turning on the AC

It is self rinsing via the normal coil condensation which will flush the gunk down into the pan and out the drain.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/AC-Safe-Air-Conditioner-Coil-Foaming-Cleaner-AC-920/100599017

Its good stuff, safe to use and relatively inexpensive.

Jerry
 

Dana

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Sounds like weighing in the charge is the only thing they did right. Dana, flex duct is crap but probably 80% of installers! nation wide swear by the stuff and claim they can't make any profit unless they hack the crap in instead of doing insulated sheet metal.

I was recently referred to this bit 0' testing by some folks at Texas A & M on just how crappy flex duct really is. (Even worse than I'd assumed!)
 

Giantsean

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I was recently referred to this bit 0' testing by some folks at Texas A & M on just how crappy flex duct really is. (Even worse than I'd assumed!)

Luckily mine are all made of insulation, omitting that inefficient plastic liner entirely :p

Ok now that I feel even better about my situation, stay tuned for my next thread dedicated to figuring out how to fix everything they f**ked up :)
 
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