Brown water....worried

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Valveman

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I wish I could see a picture. So this black steel pipe with the cap on top that sticks out of the ground 3 feet is considered the casing (annulus)? Does it go all way down the shaft, or at some point does it connect to another casing that goes further into the well? Isn't there also a liner in there somewhere. What I'm trying to wrap my head around is how/why surface water can be getting inside the casing when it is 3 feet above ground?

To install maybe 5" casing it is necessary to drill about an 8" hole. The annular space is the area between the 5" casing and the 8" hole. It doesn't really matter if the casing goes all the way down or just part way. The annular space between the 5" casing and 8" hole must be sealed with cement from the surface down far enough to prevent rainwater from getting into the well. If this concrete seal was not done properly or the concrete has cracked over time, rainwater can take any contaminates on the ground down the outside of the casing.

A tent over the well might be a good idea. If this prevents the brown water after a rain, the annular space is not sealed properly. But I have seen gopher holes many feet away from the well that will channel rainwater past the cement seal and cause this problem. In other words if the tent doesn't stop the brown water, it maybe coming in from a distance away from the well. If this is the case the gopher hole must be found and plugged.
 

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Update. I am sorry if I can't answer all questions articulately. Easiest question first. Craigpump--No there has been no increase in our electric bill.

I located my original drillers report, and it is quite extensive & detailed. One thing it does state that pump and 1" pitless well adapter both equipped with brass insert adapters was installed in addition pump has external Check valve at pump outlet.

Valveman, thank you for explaining in layman terms the annular space. We don't have gophers here, but do have chipmunks and voles. Haven't noticed any obvious holes but I'm gonna take a closer look. Usually the chippies don't hang out back there, they like the front of the house.

Oklahoma-" I don't comprehend what you are trying to ask/tell me "you do need a pump if you dont have a hole in your pipe inside the well, for the pump to be struggling to kick off pressure." Do you mean a hole that developed inside the casing which shouldn't be there? As far as pressure, the holding tank was filling very slowly and the pressure valve was barely moving. "Are you losing pressure when the pump has built up enough pressure to shut off on the pressure switch and you are not using water anywhere?" Nope.

So he came back today and did put a new pump in and set the pressure valve to 40-60. It is working. He drained the storage tank and recharged it. Advised us to run the water a lot and to drain the storage tank for the next two days. He stated that because the pump was failing it was churning/creating turbulence which may have attributed to the discolored water. However, taking a good look at the water color after installation, well is still producing grayish purple water, which leaves a stain on toilet bowl. He said it appears to be magnesium. So with the new pump and flushing out the entire system over the next several days doesn't resolve this, we will need to consider how to tackle this. I have a water softener, I quit using 10 years ago. Have a septic system and didn't want that brine going into my septic tank and leach field. I am sending water samples to Penn State Cooperative for testing. We will use the water for showering but are using bottled water for drinking, coffee and cooking.

I'll keep you all posted if you are still interested. I so appreciate there are still nice people out there willing to share their knowledge and expertise.
 

Prelude

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The gravel packing statement was for the original problem that you wanting to know about after the heavy rains. We get these calls all the time and if we don't find a problem with your well system, then that is what we tell the customer. The well driller we use guarantees clear water from their gravel packing but the son now is a 5th generation well driller.


Oklahoma, I am really trying to understand. So the gravel packing at the base of the well could possibly be affected by the heavy rains and if in turn the pump was failing it could/would disrupt the stuff accumulated in the gravel pack? Just to reiterate, our well was installed in 1986. We have had not one issue with it in the past regardless of weather and the appearance and quality of water was great. I know our water is extremely hard as sometimes I will see slight iron stain in toilet and calcium build up on our faucets. I can just imagine what the insides of our pipes look like and this does concern me in terms on any of our appliances that water passes thru.

Thinking in terms of our pipes and appliances and preventing build up of mineralization, what kind of filtering systems should we be researching. I want to avoid anything that uses salt due to my septic system. In line with that I was even contemplating have all the water lines replaced, contractor installed 1/2 inch pipes instead of 3/4 inch which gives us low flow. I don't know if it is worth doing as there are only 2 of us here and we'll probably be dead in 20 years.
 
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Valveman

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So the gravel packing at the base of the well could possibly be affected by the heavy rains and if in turn the pump was failing it could/would disrupt the stuff accumulated in the gravel pack?

I don't agree that a failing pump will stir up the water in the well. That is unless the failure is a hole in the side of the pump or pipe, which can stir up the well terribly.

And if heavy rains are causing color or sediment, the gravel pack is not the problem. The seal around the well would be the problem.
 

Reach4

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Just to add, the processes of changing a pump will often/usually kick up sediment, but I agree that I don't see how the the failing pump would have caused extra sediment in the pumped water.

I had a well pit that I washed the floor of with an large amount of liquid laundry detergent. I got convinced to get my well casing extended, and stopped trying to cheap out, when I started seeing soap suds in my water. I wonder if there is some kind of safe stuff , such as a food color, or even liquid soap, that you could pour around your well casing. Then when you detect that stuff in your water, you would become convinced.
 

Craigpump

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The purplish water is from manganese, not magnesium and will probably clear up in a day or two.

This really isn't adding up, a normal electric bill but the installer said the pump was worn out? Pumps that have serious wear run for longer periods of time to build shut off pressure so the power bill goes up. Also. Im not sure how turbulence in the well and a worn pump go hand in hand. If there is a hole in the adapter betwenen the pump and drop pie, that would create turbulence, but also increase the electric bill I would like to have been there to pressure test the drop pipe before pulling the pump.
 

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The gravel packing in the well goes as high as your water level or higher depending on the well driller. Your sediment settles to bottom of the well. When you have turbulence in the well it will pick it up off the bottom because it is stirring things up in the well. If you never had problems with heavy rain giving you dirty water before, then I agree with your pump installer. Do you know how close the pump is set to the bottom of the well? A worn pump would make a higher electric bill because it has to run longer.

Being in PA, it's most likely he has a rock well, which means it is an open bore for the most part and doesn't have any gravel pack or screen.....
 

Prelude

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For many questions I don't know answers. The previous well hit water at 68 feet and was drilled down to 102 feet for reserve. Believe the old pump sat 12 feet from bottom of well. I could write all the specs given to us and reported to the state of Pennsylvania but that would take up too room here. I have a large bottle of red food coloring that I could pour around the exposed area of the casing. Which I will do.

We are still not getting totally clear water. When running the water for a while into the laundry sink it will run pretty clean then will spurt out blacklish gray water then clear up again. We have drained the holding tank 3 times and still get water with pale purple color water. We opened the drain on the holding tank and was flushing the tank and it also spurted the dark water periodically. The pressure valve for old pump was to be set for 20-40, but over the years I know it got adjusted higher by my husband. When it was set at 20-40, the pump kicked on more frequently than after we raised it higher it didn't kick on as often.

My brother is trying to tell me it is because we were using the pressure washer to clean our deck and driveway pad. Pressure washer was run well over a week before this started and we didn't do this all in one or two days. We used the washer was over the course of a week and didn't run it non stop, we'd run it about 20 minutes and shut it down and wait another 15 minutes.

Since I think the original driller hit an underground spring, it has been crossing my mind that something may have happened to this spring and it is entering the well.
 
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Prelude

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Being in PA, it's most likely he has a rock well, which means it is an open bore for the most part and doesn't have any gravel pack or screen.....
Good thought. And I am a female, that is why I sound so uninformed, which I am about these kind of things.
 

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From original drillers documents "Depth of Bury to pitless adapter 3 FT, (5 FT from top of casing.)

Ok, now that brings up a new question, when new pump was dropped in could or would they lowered the pitless adapter
 
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Reach4

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Ok, now that brings up a new question, when new pump was dropped in could or would they lowered the pitless adapter
No. The pitless is going to stay the same depth because it is a hole in the casing with a special pair of fittings. There are many styles of pitless with the newer ones mostly being similar to this:
Install2.jpg
Mine is made by Merrill also, but it is a design that does not reduce the inside diameter allowing my use of a 3.75 OD pump in a 4-inch ID casing. There are a bunch of designs but they are all going to stay at the same depth when you change pumps.
 

Prelude

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No, I doubt that


No, I don't believe they would move it, check out my old post, more questions about total depth of pump.


OK, I am typing directly from original driller's documents:
Well and Water System Nomenclature
Size of well opening: 6 1/4" I.D. After liner installed: 5" I.D.
Well Depth from surface to date: 100 Ft 102 Ft from top of casing
Well Produces 15 G.P. Minute
Static water level: After overnight rest 63 Ft
86 total drop piping in well, (Plastic flexible) W/4 Cable Guards (Tork Stops)
Pump has external Check valve at pump outlet
Pump and Pitless adapter both equipped with brass Insert adapters
All insert coupling clamps are all stainless steel
Jacuzzi Submersible pump Model #BT5S4 108 1/2 HP 10 GPM 3 wire 230 Volt
Horizontal run from well to basement: 200 PSI water line ----33 FT 1" plastic
Horizontal run from well to basement 3/4" plastic conduit cable inside
Dept of Bury to pitless adapter 3 Ft (5Ft from top of casing
Pressure switch setting 20 to 40 PSI
Tank Empty setting 20 P.S.I.

I have a whole other page of exact materials used, such as Model # W X 203 82 gallon type storage tank.

The new driller/pump installer told me the pump usually sits at 10-12 feet from bottom of well. This measurement is not listed on my old paperwork, but under the material list it does say 118 ft, type M2 Oil Creek, Flexible plastic Pipe (86 drop)

Could 86 drop mean 86 feet down from top of casing?
 
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Prelude

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From what I have seen, most people that sit 12ft or less from bottom, usually complain about getting dirty water from time to time in my area, especially when they use it heavily. We bring it back up 10 to 20ft to take care of that problem.

I like that pump by the way, we use Water Horse made by Franklin, which is basically a Jacuzzi Submersible Pump because Franklin bought out Jacuzzi.

Who can guess what happened next after Franklin made that move?


Who can guess what happened next after Franklin made that move? I don't know, but would like to.

They replaced the old pump with a Franklin, 7FR05S4-2W230, 7GPM 1/2 hp, pump set depth 90', 10' from bottom of well. The charge for the pump was a little over $800. Still dirty water, went from the dark purplish color to now gray. It was clearing up pretty good last night, but this morning after use it is grayish. We going to call the installer Monday.

For everyone, any thoughts on filtration systems for inside the house. Don't want anything that uses salt. I am concerned about mineralization buildup in my appliances.
 

Reach4

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Who can guess what happened next after Franklin made that move? I don't know, but would like to.

http://justicewater.com/articles/baad-pumps is an interesting article on the Franklin, Goulds, Sta-rite and Faradyne events and I like it. It is not very recent. So things have changed since the article was writen. Some virus checkers give a virus warning; I think it is a false positive. However if you search for "years ago both Sta-rite and Goulds asked Franklin Electric" (with the quotes) on Google and choose the cached version, you could avoid any worry.
 

Prelude

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http://justicewater.com/articles/baad-pumps is an interesting article on the Franklin, Goulds, Sta-rite and Faradyne events and I like it. It is not very recent. So things have changed since the article was writen. Some virus checkers give a virus warning; I think it is a false positive. However if you search for "years ago both Sta-rite and Goulds asked Franklin Electric" (with the quotes) on Google and choose the cached version, you could avoid any worry.

Thanks much!
 

Prelude

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I need to take a mental break and think things over guys.

Had a lot on our plate this past week, getting floors refinished and moving furniture and no kitchen access.
Still flushing holding tank. Still getting light gray water and occasional spurts of dark discharge. Not finding granular residue sitting at bottom of glass any more. Decided to do a load of white rags and see if they come out clean or stained. Going to pour red food coloring around the casing and rain is expected tomorrow.

Talked to neighbor on property above us to see if they know if there has been any shallow gas well drilling going on. None to their knowledge, but there is another farm owner to the left I need to talk to. There is a lot of marcelus shale drilling planned, but that hasn't started yet.

Trying to locate a local place to test the water. It could take weeks if I have to send it off to Penn State. Calling the driller/installer again Monday and am looking for professional who deals in analysis of underground water sheds/systems.

Letsrunum, we have earthquakes here too, none lately, but expect to have more with marcelus shale drilling.
 

Reach4

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A 5 inch casing will have about a gallon of water per foot. Any food coloring that leaked in would probably become very diluted. So it would take a lot of food coloring or some very sensitive detection.

Hach has a test powder called Pathoscreen. You dump a packet with sample water into a sterilized bottle. In about a day it turns color if there is a suspected pathogen growing in the media.

http://www.hach.com/quick.search-quick.search.jsa?keywords=pathoscreen
 
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VAWellDriller

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I need to take a mental break and think things over guys.

Had a lot on our plate this past week, getting floors refinished and moving furniture and no kitchen access.
Still flushing holding tank. Still getting light gray water and occasional spurts of dark discharge. Not finding granular residue sitting at bottom of glass any more. Decided to do a load of white rags and see if they come out clean or stained. Going to pour red food coloring around the casing and rain is expected tomorrow.

Talked to neighbor on property above us to see if they know if there has been any shallow gas well drilling going on. None to their knowledge, but there is another farm owner to the left I need to talk to. There is a lot of marcelus shale drilling planned, but that hasn't started yet.

Trying to locate a local place to test the water. It could take weeks if I have to send it off to Penn State. Calling the driller/installer again Monday and am looking for professional who deals in analysis of underground water sheds/systems.

Letsrunum, we have earthquakes here too, none lately, but expect to have more with marcelus shale drilling.
watercheck.com
 

Reach4

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Find a pump guy to run a downhole camera down the well and inspect the casing....
That sounds like a great idea. Seems clear in hindsight.

Could the pump remain in place?
Would it be best to do that after a big rain to uncover rainwater working its way in?
 
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