I'm back with softener questions

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M Cole

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My prior post regarding conditioners vs. softeners put me on the track of reputable softener sellers/installers in my region (eastern WA/ north ID). My current favorite is a local company selling Watts equipment. My only issue is hardness, which tests anywhere from 9 to 11 GPG, pH is 7.9. Water line is 1". Our household uses about 270 gals per day (excluding irrigation). Home has 4 baths w/ 5 shower heads & 2 tubs (1 is very rarely used).

Proposed system is a 10", 1.5 cu ft single tank, 45,000 grains capacity, Model M3013-W100SM. The head appears to be a Clack WS-1 re-branded by Watts. My salesman claims up to 32 gpm of treated water with that setup. QWA's calculator recommends 21,600 grains for our conditions, and treated flow of just 12 gpm conditioned water for an average 1.5 cu ft system. Somehow the math isn't adding up.

To help reduce the slickness and soapy residue feeling, the installer is proposing to add an adjustable bypass valve so I can dial in the % of untreated water added to the conditioned water to suit my taste. Curiously, Culligan pushes the dial-a-softness "metered" feature in their heads, and their rep pooh-poohed the effectiveness of a manual bypass valve. He claimed a disproportionate % of untreated water would pass through the manual valve during low-flow conditions. I don't see it being any different than a manual balancing valve; you balance it once and forget it.

Does anyone have input, pro or con, about Watts softeners or Clack heads?
Or about manual bypass valve vs. metered?
 

Reach4

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Proposed system is a 10", 1.5 cu ft single tank, 45,000 grains capacity, Model M3013-W100SM. The head appears to be a Clack WS-1 re-branded by Watts. My salesman claims up to 32 gpm of treated water with that setup. QWA's calculator recommends 21,600 grains for our conditions, and treated flow of just 12 gpm conditioned water for an average 1.5 cu ft system. Somehow the math isn't adding up.

So they agree on the size. Salesman is wildly overstating the flow rate that the 1.5 cuft softener can support for softened water..

I doubt that you will feel a need to mix in hardness once you adjust the soap levels.

You will find a lot of people like the Clack. Local sellers like that they won't sell directly to you and will not permit internet or phone sellers to sell to you. But they also like the valve because of its performance.
 

Bannerman

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To help reduce the slickness and soapy residue feeling,

It's easy to take a different view once you recognize that with hard water, the same curds that stick to your bathtub/shower as "soap scum", also stick to your skin and hair. That soft water slippery feeling on your skin is mostly the natural oils and softness of your skin without sticky soap, calcium and magnesium residue. While soaps and detergents actually easily rinse away using soft water, you will need to substantially reduce the quantity of soap, detergent, shampoo and fabric softener utilized as you will no longer need to compensate for the water's hardness.

The change of texture will be odd at first but you will become accustomed to it quickly. After a week or so, you'll probably feel 'less clean' if you shower anywhere that doesn't have soft water.
 
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Bannerman

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which tests anywhere from 9 to 11 GPG,
Since the water maybe being obtained from more than one source and as the 9 to 11 is likely a blended hardness amount, you probably should program for say 12 grains to provide a little buffer in case more water than usual is obtained from the harder source.

My salesman claims up to 32 gpm of treated water with that setup.

A softener with only 1.5 cu/ft, cannot provide fully softened water at that flow rate.

Too many dealers mistakenly claim the valve's physical flow rating (with pressure loss) as the softener's flow rating. While the same valve can usually be used on a range of softeners from 3/4 to 2.5 cu/ft or larger, obviously, the ability to remove hardness at high flow is going to change depending on the tank diameter and quantity of resin. This is why the flow requirements are often the first consideration in sizing a softener.

As you have 4 bathrooms with 5 shower heads, your flow requirements could possibly exceed a1.5 cu/ft unit if all were utilized at the same time, not to mention laundry and dishwashing also flowing. While a small amount of hardness bleed through is OK occasionally, you shouldn't plan for bleed through on a regular basis.

Since residential softeners are rarely programmed to use the total resin capacity, a larger capacity unit would permit higher flows, but can be programmed to regenerate when virtually any lower amount of capacity has been consumed, with a resulting increase in salt efficiency. While the accepted target is a weekly regeneration, a softener may go much longer to regenerate, especially if there is no iron being removed by the softener.
 
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ditttohead

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32 gpm!!! LOL, realistically that system will provide approximately 14 gpm peak, which should exceed any flow rates a regular household application will ever need. Unfortunately your salesman is not very knowledgeable of the equipment. The external inline mixing valve is excellent by Clack and works better than most. Be sure they are providing the real one, and not just adding an external bypass valve, see the picture below.


upload_2015-6-29_9-31-7.png
 

Bannerman

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Does anyone have input, pro or con, about Watts softeners or Clack heads?
Or about manual bypass valve vs. metered

In response to your questions:

1) A great number of softeners on the market, are comprised of various generic, off the shelf components, assembled together and marketed under various brand names. Watts appear to be doing this also as they are promoting the Vortec tank system as their upscale system although Vortec tanks are available to anyone. Standard tanks are also available, both types paired with Clack or Fleck control valves.

Clack, Fleck and Autotrol are the leading brands of control valves. They are long established companies which offer various high quality and long service life heads which are utilized on a widest variety of generic softeners marketed under numerous brand names. Service and parts are easily attainable at reasonable cost through almost any local water treatment dealer.

There are other brands which often utilize proprietary components which then require obtaining parts and service from their specialized dealers only.

There are other heads available offshore which are often copies of Fleck and Clack models. While they maybe less expensive, the quality, longevity and parts availability cannot be assured.

2) You asked about 'manual bypass' vs 'metered'. By this I expect you mean time clock initiated regeneration vs metered regeneration.

While time clocks had been a long common method, they are not considered efficient as they will regenerate at a set schedule whether the softener has treated the entire amount of water or none at all.

Metered (demand initiated) valves are now becoming most standard. Some US states are slowly requiring demand controls as they will initiate the regeneration cycle only when a set amount of water has been utilized. As such, they are considered more environmentally friendly as less salt should be utilized and there should be less discharge to dispose and process.
 
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M Cole

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Thank you all for your replies.

My salesman/installer checked his source and confirmed maximum treatment rate of 12-15 gpm for the 1.5 cu ft tank. Have to wonder how many years he's been claiming outrageous treatment rates...... Our master tub has a faucet rated to deliver 18 gpm, but fed via two 1/2" PEX lines, so up to 12 gpm through the pipes, if my research in another Terry Love forum isn't too far off. So, while filling the tub, if someone flushes a toilet, runs a shower, dishwasher, clothes washer, etc, we've exceeded the capacity of the softener, right?

So, I'm leaning toward accepting his offer to upsize to a 2 cu ft unit.

Bannerman, to answer your answer about manual bypass vs. metered, I probably am guilty of confusing you with my terminology. I'm referring to two methods of bypassing the tank with a small amount of hard water if we are not satisfied with the feel of 100% soft water.

Manual = manually adjustable. (dittohead, I'll have to find out what brand & type of bypass valve he proposes; he wasn't specific when we met.)

The other type, what I called "metered", refers to the internal bypass valve promoted by Culligan, which supposedly compensates for pressure or whatever differential there would be for water moving through the softener vs. directly through the bypass valve. His pitch was that their internal valve will ensure that if I dial it to 1% bypass, I will actually get 1% bypass. He contends that a manual valve will not have the same consistent bypass as a % of the total water leaving the assembly when the total flow rate fluctuates.
 

Bannerman

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Upon re-reading your OP again after I last posted, I realized by using the words 'metered bypass', you were continuing to refer to 'mixing' un-softened water with the softened water to provide a blend of both.

While I remain of the opinion that your family will quickly become accustomed to and will appreciate fully softened water, does your concern relate only to bathing?

As your house is equipped with PEX which is often run individually to each fixture from central h & c manifolds, is there potential to install a third manifold for un-softened water to feed the cold lines to your bath/shower fixtures? This way, you would receive a less soft mixture while bathing, but the remainder of the house, particularly laundry and dishwasher, will benefit by a fully softened supply.

I am aware of some homeowners having installed softeners feeding only their water heaters. While that addresses water heater scale and dishwasher issues, the benefit of soft water is not fully realized by the residents.
 
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M Cole

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Having been in a few friends homes with softeners, we've found the "slick" feeling to be a nuisance for bathing, hair, hands, etc. I have no doubt we'll eventually get adjusted to using less soap/detergent. So, you very well may be correct that we'll grow accustomed to 100% soft water; we want the adjustable bypass just in case we don't.

So, is there any merit to the benefit of an internal "compensating" bypass valve versus a conventional external bypass valve?
 

ditttohead

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Yes, from a technical standpoint they are more accurate. A highly accurate needle design works just as well for 99% of applications, most people would not be able to perceive the difference. Don't worry about it.

For the most part, it only takes 1/2 GPG to get rid of the silky feeling. This feeling goes away quickly as your brain becomes accustomed to the new normal. Once you are used to it, hard water will feel very sticky and dirty, this is due to the soap curds stuck to your skin. Try this, wash your hands with soap and water, rinse for a few seconds, until they feel like the soap is gone, then lick your "clean" hand. It will taste like soap... simple enough, the soap did not rinse off completely, it is still there.
 
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