Toilet review bias?

[Walther]

As someone in the market for a new toilet I was happy to come across this website. However, I wonder about the legitimacy of it after seeing so much "one-sidedness" in the reviews and forum posts. With so many manufacturers, and so many models, it seems a little odd that one brand, Toto, makes nothing but great toilets, while all the other brands suck. I've seen people get bashed, in a very personal way, for even suggesting any Toto model MIGHT have an issue. Also, Consumer Reports recently tested 32 models and were able to recommend about half of them (from several different manufacturers), but I've seen them get bashed as well (I know they're not infallible, but they are generally a very good source of independent test/analysis). I'm not doubting that one company can be better overall, but I find it hard to believe they've achieved perfection while everyone else is failing miserably.

 

[Terry]

This is a page by a plumber with over 40 years in the business.
I don't review baby food, car batteries or cell phone coverage. I don't pretend to be an expert on politics or religion.
What I do write about is my everyday life concerning construction and plumbing. Which I have to say, I'm expert in.

If you think that two guys that don't plumb, are fetish about staying clean and wear white lab coats would know more about toilets than the plumbers in the field, then I believe you should go with their research. Good luck.

Here are some comments from 2009
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....t-rates-american-standard-champion-4-1.29870/

Consumer Reports Best Buy, Eljer with PF/2

Terry,
What do you know about the Aquasaver by Eljer? Does it work better than the Flushmate?

I used one for a month. The bowl needs a redesign. Too much force from the siphon jet shreds the toilet paper and it floats back into the bowl after the flush.
The women in the house were a little freaked with the startling response when you pushed the lever down. And then it didn't take all the paper down, so they had to reflush. Terry Love

Which was pretty funny considering that Consumer Reports gave this toilets their Best Buy.
Next time they should let a homeowner use it first, it should have been "Buyer Beware".

Over the last five years, everybody has been doing better. It wasn't CR pushing for better quality though. It was this page.
Quality control is still a big issue for plumbers. We don't get paid to return bad items. Items we have to return costs us. Nobody is covering our labor.
Consumer Reports tests with sponges and baby wipes. Both items should never be flushed and are useless for testing real world conditions.
I listen to comments by women and children. I consider whether you have a toilet near a bedroom, not a noisy warehouse setting.
I worry about getting parts later. Will I have to shim the bowl to keep it from rocking? Does the flush shred but leave bits of paper and poo in the bowl for the next user?
Some trapways work fine for sponges, but not so good for what is being flushed in the home.
Sometimes I will see a new product and know right away if there will be problems later. I point those out, and sure enough, those products get pulled and re-designed. Consumer Reports gives them a “Best Buy” and then never admits their mistakes.

That being said, I do need to update.
The latest Kohler products with the Aqua Piston are much better now.
The American Standard Cadet 3 is working. I would not bother with Champion, though that has been reworked too and will serve. Not a top choice though.
I sell a few Gerber, though as always, the pressure assist units are not as good as the Kohler pressure assist.
For quality control and performance, TOTO has been very good. Can you blame me for installing products that give me no issues?
What do you do for a living? Do you like your job easy? Or do you like to challenge yourself? I like easy.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WJcandee]

There is no "bias". Bias would be if Terry deleted people's posts when they recommended something other than Toto. Or tried to keep them from doing so. Bias would be only allowing members who were fans of Toto.

Instead, this board reflects CONSENSUS. Consensus among many members about the overall quality and satisfaction they have with certain toilet products.

That said, there are important DISSENTERS, who like a particular other brand or line and say so and say why.

This board simply provides INFORMATION rather than marketing bunk. And allows and encourages people, admittedly people who have greater experience than the average citizen, to tell it as they see it.

 

[Wallijonn]

... it seems a little odd that one brand, Toto, makes nothing but great toilets, while all the other brands suck. ... I'm not doubting that one company can be better overall, but I find it hard to believe they've achieved perfection while everyone else is failing miserably.

Remember foremost that a majority of people are price sensitive, so the majority of buyers may pick a toilet from Lowe's, Home Depot or Costco. The problem is that Lowe's and HD may be selling seconds and thirds, so their return rate will probably be higher. The minority of buyers may go through a plumbing house so their quality is usually better. Totos can usually only be bought through these self same plumbing houses. Lowe's, HD and Costco probably have their own brands for sale made by the same large manufacturers, and since it is probably via contract cost cutting will surely play a part in quality control.

Not all Totos are created equal, nor do they all the perform the same. But they do have a model that is the acme, the Drake. It performs optimally at its price point, so we call it the "best bang for the buck". There is typically a very low return rate associated with this model. The question you have to ask is why some people are willing to pay $100, or more, for it over a comparable American Standard or Kohler. To some people it is as simple as never having to use a plunger ever again. For others it is as simple as not having to pay a plumber to make a house visit.

 

[SteveW]

Terry, and this site, get their share of bashing for recommending Toto toilets, including from some of the long-time members of this forum. As mentioned above, Terry doesn't censor those comments.

Personally, when I consult an expert, I want them to be "biased." If you see a doctor, and she tells you that you have 4 different options for treating your condition, but she refuses to give you her opinion about which one she thinks is best, would that be a satisfying encounter?

Terry has real-world experience that other sources just don't have. I have gotten lots of absolutely great advice from Terry and others here. And have never had to pay a dime, incidentally...

 

[hj]

Personally, I MAY have installed about 6 TOTO toilets since they came on the market. I install a different brand because it is made in such a way that it is almost impossible to clog it.

 

[Terry]

Personally, I MAY have installed about 6 TOTO toilets since they came on the market. I install a different brand because it is made in such a way that it is almost impossible to clog it.

And that's how plumbers look at things. We like something we are comfortable with that keeps people happy.

 

[Walther]

thanks for the feedback Terry! I wasn't intending to question your expertise or knowledge, but reading through your website raised red flags for me just because of the pretty much universal praise of everything Toto and the pretty much universal condemnation of everything else. Based on your experience it certainly seems Toto is a safe bet, especially for someone like myself with no knowledge in the area, but does that mean there aren't other good options as well? It seems you don't like Consumer Reports at all, but I've had pretty good success over the years relying on their testing. Not perfect, but pretty good. Have you seen their most recent toilet ratings, if so, do you agree or disagree with them? As I said, they recommended 15 out of 32 tested, including 3 Totos. One that did well that I'm considering is the American Standard Champion 4 Max, which also appears to have good customer reviews on sites. I'm sure you would recommend any Toto over that one, but one thing that I like about the Champion is that I can pick one up at Home Depot and if I have any problems I can take it back (no shipping of anything back and forth, as it would be for Toto).

 

[Walther]

Personally, I MAY have installed about 6 TOTO toilets since they came on the market. I install a different brand because it is made in such a way that it is almost impossible to clog it.

If I can ask, what "different brand" are you referring to?

 

[Walther]

There is no "bias". Bias would be if Terry deleted people's posts when they recommended something other than Toto. Or tried to keep them from doing so. Bias would be only allowing members who were fans of Toto.

Instead, this board reflects CONSENSUS. Consensus among many members about the overall quality and satisfaction they have with certain toilet products.

That said, there are important DISSENTERS, who like a particular other brand or line and say so and say why.

This board simply provides INFORMATION rather than marketing bunk. And allows and encourages people, admittedly people who have greater experience than the average citizen, to tell it as they see it.

If he deleted posts, that would be dishonest/unethical, and much worse than "bias". And bias is acceptable as long as it is based on a fair assessment, as in you've personally tested or had experience with specific models in sufficient numbers that you can draw supportable conclusions. But many of the generalized statements I've read on this forum don't appear to indicate that.

 

[Walther]

Remember foremost that a majority of people are price sensitive, so the majority of buyers may pick a toilet from Lowe's, Home Depot or Costco. The problem is that Lowe's and HD may be selling seconds and thirds, so their return rate will probably be higher. The minority of buyers may go through a plumbing house so their quality is usually better. Totos can usually only be bought through these self same plumbing houses. Lowe's, HD and Costco probably have their own brands for sale made by the same large manufacturers, and since it is probably via contract cost cutting will surely play a part in quality control.

Not all Totos are created equal, nor do they all the perform the same. But they do have a model that is the acme, the Drake. It performs optimally at its price point, so we call it the "best bang for the buck". There is typically a very low return rate associated with this model. The question you have to ask is why some people are willing to pay $100, or more, for it over a comparable American Standard or Kohler. To some people it is as simple as never having to use a plunger ever again. For others it is as simple as not having to pay a plumber to make a house visit.

Thanks - is the Drake II comparable to the Drake? Also, where did you get your information about Lowes and HD selling seconds and thirds? And the return rate on the Drakes?

 

[Jadnashua]

The DrakeII is the second generation bowl wash design of the Drake...so, it is a newer design and most people like the features. Toto's website discusses it well. Either one works. The II series come with CEFIONTECT as standard, it is optional on the original Drake.

The consensus is that to achieve the price points, the big box stores may on some occasions have special models made for them, and in some others, may essentially accept nearly anything off of the production line. Since most modern production lines are optimized for few failures, you usually get a good product. But, if the big box store accepts all outputs without extensive QA/QC, then there will be more defects that get through. QA/QC costs money to perform. A typical DIY'er may not notice a small cosmetic flaw, and if the performance flaw isn't big, may not know any better, and instead of the factory first finding it and either fixing it or destroying the product, it ends up in someone's home. It often is identical to the ones that do pass QA/QC testing that get sold through the plumbing store distribution channel, but not always. As a result, someone at a big box store gets a bargain, often gets a first-rate product, but if not, they still may not get it back, and both the manufacturer and the store make money, sometimes with a less than perfect product being delivered.

A professional cannot afford to deal with those defects.

Terry periodically reports his average defect/return rates on the items he sells, and Toto has historically had the lowest rate of returns. He sells a lot of toilets and more than one brand and model.

 

[Terry]

Thanks - is the Drake II comparable to the Drake? And the return rate on the Drakes?

When we buy, sell and install inventory, we have proof of how many units we buy and how many are returned.
With TOTO it has been less then 1%
I can't say that with all brands.

The Drake II adds a swirl to the rinse, and a CEFIONTECT bowl finish. I like them. So does CR. Which surprises me.
The other version from TOTO like the Drake II is the Ultramax II. CR has a video they like to show where they first plug the bowl, and then shoot video of it. The toilet was obviously plugged up "before" the video was done. I don't know what they plugged it with, but it stopped it up pretty good. When I'm looking at toilets, I work with a new one out of the box that hasn't been plugged yet.
The Drake II and the Ultramax II have the same lower end, and same parts in the tank. I sell tons of them. Most are repeat sales.
If you are buying at a home center, you may want to look at something like the Kohler Wellworth or the American Standard Cadet 3.


Glacier Bay N2316 dual flush. CR score 72
My daughter had the N2316's in her new home. She didn't like them at all.
I replaced them with a TOTO Ultramax,
a Kohler touchless Cimarron, CR score 57
and a Kohler touchless San Souci. All of these were much better than the CR rated Glacier Bay.

 

[WJcandee]

Personally, when I consult an expert, I want them to be "biased." If you see a doctor, and she tells you that you have 4 different options for treating your condition, but she refuses to give you her opinion about which one she thinks is best, would that be a satisfying encounter?

Amen, Brother. Terry and HJ tell you what they think, and why, and they have never steered me wrong yet.

And it's utterly-stupid for people to think that only Terrylove.com members love their Totos. If you look at that big internet retailer we don't mention, and go through the reviews and rankings, you often see the Drake II as being the number 1 toilet by volume that they sell. And the reviews on the Totos of course have a couple of detractors, but mostly are ravingly-favorable. Like the guy who said that his wife bought him a Toto for his birthday and a week had gone by and she was annoyed that every time he flushes the toilet, he yells out "TOTO!!!" with complete delight because it's so much better than his previous toilet.

 

[Plumbs Away]

thanks for the feedback Terry! I wasn't intending to question your expertise or knowledge, but reading through your website raised red flags for me just because of the pretty much universal praise of everything Toto and the pretty much universal condemnation of everything else. Based on your experience it certainly seems Toto is a safe bet, especially for someone like myself with no knowledge in the area, but does that mean there aren't other good options as well? It seems you don't like Consumer Reports at all, but I've had pretty good success over the years relying on their testing. Not perfect, but pretty good. Have you seen their most recent toilet ratings, if so, do you agree or disagree with them? As I said, they recommended 15 out of 32 tested, including 3 Totos. One that did well that I'm considering is the American Standard Champion 4 Max, which also appears to have good customer reviews on sites. I'm sure you would recommend any Toto over that one, but one thing that I like about the Champion is that I can pick one up at Home Depot and if I have any problems I can take it back (no shipping of anything back and forth, as it would be for Toto).

If you go with an American Standard Champion, spend a few extra bucks and get the Champion Pro. It's exactly the same as the Champion 4 Max, except that the inlet shaft on the fill valve is brass and the flush lever is all metal. The Champion 4 Max is made exclusively for The Home Depot and if you read the reviews on The Home Depot's site, the rate of return due to casting and finish defects is high. You can search the Champion Pro and order online or have someone local order it for you. I'm not sure why Terry doesn't care for the Champion models now, as far as performance. The original Champion line was jinxed and rarely was there a positive review for it -- on this site or any other. The revamped Champion line (Champion 4 and Champion Pro) are greatly improved. They got away from the canister system. They use the Fluidmaster fill valve which is easily repaired or replaced and the "flapper" seal is an easy fix. Flushing performance is beyond compare. I have the one-piece 1.6 GPF elongated ADA, and I'm very happy with it, but I would prefer one of the 2-piece Pro models (available in 1.28 or 1.6 GPF) because they have the PowerWash rim that adds a "swirl" to the flush. I have ordered several toilets online for delivery and haven't had a problem, but maybe I've just been lucky in that respect.