Collapsed Well Need Opinions

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TrapperMark

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Hello, been on here for a while and have learned alot. Below is a bit long winded but neccessary..
Just built new home in the fall and had a well drilled to 360ft, 20ft of casing the rest hard rock. We were told it was not a gusher but the volume should make up for that, i also hired them to install the pump and tank since i was busy completing the house. days after moving in, Dec 20th we ran out of water, called the driller, he said he would come up and "pound" which i assume is an old school fraking equip. i was away when they came, dec 28th, but while in they were in the process the well collapsed at about 250 ft. as i was told they almost got their cable driven equipment jammed 3x after giving up and they told me there was a soft layer that was the cause. To add to my bad luck their main drill rig was down and still is down for the usual scheduled winter maintenance. this rig would easily clear up the blocked area but i have to wait till it is back online, mid late feb, and warmer weather. we have some water but we can only have enough for 1 load of laundry, 1 adult shower, 2 young kids bath and some toilet flushes per day if we r lucky and space the uses apart. this is not enough for a house with a 6 month and a 4 yr old. i have been making due...
My questions are: 1) i was told to fill my well with water from my well in my old home but i am concerned about all the sediment it will stir up and i will eject most of what i put in just to clear it up enough for use. i have an inline whole house filter but that has limits.
2) Once the well is cleared should i get them to drill deeper in hopes of finding a better volume source?
3) Will this area collapse on me again in the future?
 

Valveman

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If there is a "soft layer" the well should be cased pass that point or it will cave in again. If you pour water down a well it will most likely just disappear into the earth. If you have another well with a pump you can just tee it into the lines in the new house.

After the well is back to normal, you may need a storage tank and booster pump if the well doesn't produce enough for demands.
 

Craigpump

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I have installed miles of 4" sch 40 pvc in wells just like you describe, but first the well has to be cleaned out. The pvc I use comes pre slotted to allow the water into the pipe, and a standard 4" pump fits perfectly inside.

What is not a gusher? 1 gpm, 2gpm? The average person uses 75 gallons a day. 1440 minutes in a day x 1 gpm = 1440 gallons
 

TrapperMark

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Valveman: There is no other well to T into.
Craigpump has suggested 4" pvc after the clean out which sounds like a good idea. I assume the pre slotted pipe is sewer drain pipe? Craig the original well provides less than 5 gallons per minute, now i would guess than 1 gallon.

Another driller has suggested leaving the plugged area there and fracking . The hole is all canadian shield rock, the tailings were all the same colour clear through to 360 ft. SO will fraking from 200 ft up to surface going to get me a decent well in your experiences??
 

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No it's not drain pipe, drain pipe doesn't have the strength to hold back a shifting formation.

Less than 5gpm is pretty broad. 4 gpm would be better than 5600 gallons a day, 2 gpm would be better than 2800 gallons....

I'd want the hole cleaned out and sleeved with 4"sch 40. We use Certalok pipe, it goes together with a spline rather than glue & it goes in fast. Really fast
 

TrapperMark

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A quick up date.. Drill rig came up a week ago and re-bored hole but also drilled another 120 ft with the theory of opening more water viens help a low yeilding well. This now puts my well depth at 480, the deepest in my area. After a 48 hr wait the driller came back to re install pump but had to back fill well to the top since the well was not full (fresh water), not a promising sign. The pump was set back at the 200ft level which is above the old collapsed zone. We have went all week and have not run out but i keep getting the feeling it is gonna happen soon. The driller did spend alot of time during the reboring process raising and flushing the collapsed zone, i figure that was a good effort to help solve the problem. IF i run out of water my plan B is line the hole with pvc pipe to the 360 ft mark and lower the pump to the 330 mark and try that. I checked into the certa-pipe, hard to purchase up here but found suitable replacement, don't have the slots but the pipe will not be at the bottom of the hole either. That is about it, anyone see any problems with my plan B?
 

Craigpump

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Yep
Unless he was able to get more water putting the pump back at the same depth was a complete waste of time. Especially since he had to fill the well from a truck.

When you decide to run liner, be prepared for that well to have fallen in again. You may have to have the well cleaned out one more time.

IF you do run liner, run it all the way down so it stands in the well rather than relying on straps to hold it in place. Then set the pump at the bottom so you can use the entire water supply.

Slotting liner is easy, use a circular saw with a carbide blade and cut slots every foot or so across the pipe and make them about 3-4" long. If I was doing your well, I'd slot 5 pieces. With an 1/8 slot 3" long every foot, that would give you a window opening of about 3"x30", more than enough for domestic purposes.
 

TrapperMark

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Well it did happen, ran out later in the day after the post.

Craig: u were right, it was a waste of time and some seeds of false hope on my part too. And a big thanks for the slotting tip, very appreciated indeed and a DIY!

My only caution/worry lining the hole is after putting the pump all the way down, back fill with water only to run out again a week or 2 after all that effort, not too mention the extra expense. . I realize the volume should make up for that but the well clearly cannot provide very much. less than a gallon per minute for sure. Would FRAKKING help me out to expose some additional water veins?? If so would it trigger another collapse?

Thanks for any input.
 

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Here's the thing, you have a well with a really bad zone, if you frack above that zone it very well could fall in again and you may never get liner in. It's possible that fracking below that bad zone might get you the results you need, but you run the risk of loosing the packer and tubing if the well falls in while fracking.

Tough call, but I'd be inclined to drill another well
 

TrapperMark

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What was suggested to me by a friend is drop the pump down deep (350-400) , see what happens and make a decision to line the hole then. His reason was that if i backfilled, lowered the pump and began to use water as it gets low perhaps those smaller veins down deep will flow better due to the reduction of pressure. If they begin to flow decent perhaps it will be enough to handle our daily needs. I figured out how much we have used daily and if we can get 75 gallons per day we should be o.k, but that is a bare minimum. The risk is losing the pump and the well from collapsing but right now the well is nearly dead from 200 ft up and not much is coming up from below, i don't have many options left other than drill a new hole at 24 $$ a foot. What do you think???
 

Craigpump

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75 gallons a day? That's all? The average person in the US uses 75 gallons a day...

Yeah, there could be some fractures below 300' that are feeding water in under lower pressure, but really and truly you want the pump 20-25 off the bottom of the well so you can use every drop you can.

I'm really surprised a reputable drilling contractor would leave you in such a predicament.
 

TrapperMark

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That is about it, but we have low flush toilets, really watch our water consumption and supplement the well by having bottled water etc. We have been without a constant supply of well water for so long it now comes natural to saving water. Feels like an expensive camping trip is what i tell my wife! LOL

Right now the hole is 480, the pump at 200 and plan to drop it to 400 but another 50 at this point is a good idea. This f# well is bleeding me dry and i was trying to save a few bucks on wire and pipe in case this didn't work out. Also going to put the extension on myself, pulled and replaced pumps, wires, switches etc at old house so i can handle this and no high $ driller bill to boot (no offense to u or anyone else). Got a pitman adapter removal tool already made up for the extraction and gave it try, would not budge and the well was full. What is up with that?? Rubber seal have a good lock on the adapter or what? Any tricks of the trade on getting it to unseal, it is new so it should be easy.Old home had a well house and i just disconnected and hauled everything up.

The driller has a decent rep locally but i think they want this one though to go away, period! Just got the final bill to boot, tough pill to swallow on a damp hole with a family to try and keep supplied with H2O. No guaranty of water when i hired them in the the contract so not much i can do about it.
 

Craigpump

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You might not want to do that, first off you can't get the pitless out.

People don't realize how heavy and potentially dangerous a pump, drop pipe full of water and wire really is, one slip and everything is now at the bottom of the hole. When that happens you're now calling in someone to fish it all out. If you're unlucky and get your hand or leg in the bite of the wire, you can get seriously hurt.

In addition, the pump that is set at 200' might not be the pump that would be required at 400 or 450', and the wire size will also probably have to be increased.
 

TrapperMark

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Thanks for the heads up.

Pitless attempt was a decent tug and that was it. A quick tap with the sledge should break the seal i bet. The system is heavy and no fun without a wheel or mechanical help, I used a tri pod the last couple of times and it worked well. Also, i required the driller tie off the pump with 1/2 rope and attach it to an eye bolt installed at the top of the casing for insurance when the system was originally installed. Had it at the my previous place and it was a good piece of mind. No choice but to DIY, like it or not.

Pump wire is standard 12/4. the pump did sit at 320 originally but will check the franklin specs b 4 commiting to 400.
 

TrapperMark

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Craig; You were right about the well collapsing again, went to lower the pump and only went an additional 20 ft before it stopped. Guess maybe i should have lined hole right after the rebore but still not convinced it could have supplied enough for daily use to justify expense. Driller contacted, he wants me to "keep him up to date"....
any ideas?
 

Craigpump

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Like I said before, this is a tough call. I'd hate to see you or anyone else throw more money into a well that's been nothing but grief.

If you were my customer I'd recommend moving across the property and drilling another well. Drill until you get the water you need, 600-700' if you have to. If you have to frac it, frac below where the other well is caving in. Be prepared to line it as a preventative measure. You might want to consider another drilling contractor, I don't think this guy has your best interest in mind.
 
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