Inspection hell (or why not to DIY)

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Giantsean

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Hi everyone,

First time poster but long time lurker. I am doing a large 2nd floor conversion in a 1950's cape including creating a master bath from a large 2nd bedroom, and having some issues w/ the plumbing. I had hooked up with a P2 licensed plumber (basically a journeyman so I had to pull a homeowner permit) through a friend and so far he has seemed pretty knowledgeable... at least until it was time for the town to come to do the inspection. Overall it wasn't so bad... all good except for two big issues:

Issue 1 - lack of a toilet vent. The plumber said he planned to wet vent to the existing setup (the middle vertical pipe goes into the attic, where it bends and hooks up with the vent from the adjacent bathroom shower which goes up through the roof. I could make another hole but trying to avoid that if possible. The inspector said that's a lot going on to make it fly, so the plumber said we could tie a vent from toilet through floor and into the lav vent. The plan can be seen on one of the attached pics (green markup). This seems workable from my limited knowledge of plumbing, but worth other opinions given all the drama of...

Issue 2 - no space for a tub trap. This one actually concerns me quite a bit as I can't see a way past it. Couple of things happening here... We changed from a 42" tub to a 36" (no fault of the plumbers) but he had already piped in a waste pipe at the 21" center line (vs the 18" we need). Ok fine, we planned to just offset the tub drain a bit and tie in. But during the inspection the inspector asked how I'm possibly going to fit a P trap under there, since the waste pipe is maybe an inch TOPS off of the ceiling in the bay (joists are 2 x 8). I have reviewed a bit and I tend to agree with the inspector. The plumber said we could pitch a pipe up to meet a trap and keep it in the bay, but from what I have read this is a no-no (trap outlet needs to be near-level to avoid siphoning the trap). I am not sure if there is a way to drop it down into the rest of the existing pipe somehow. Also not sure why it's so low in the first place unless it had to be that way to keep the vents above the waste pipes. I'd REALLY like to avoid having to make a hole in the ceiling or mess around with the room below, as it will be in an awkward spot. Hoping for a miracle with this one!

As a picture speaks a thousand words, I have attached three thousand words worth of pictures :)

Thanks in advance for any advice!

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Terry

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Your handyman should have vented the toilet, which he could have done by running 2" to the lav and using the lav as a wet vent. That would require a 2" pipe, not 1.5"

The tub line is too low. And yes you are right, and your handyman is wrong. He should be coming here for advice, as he seems unaware of what fittings to use, how to vent, and how to run trap arms for tubs.
The horizontal santee below the flood level is wrong too. I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed with the guy you hired.
 

Tom Sawyer

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What's a P2 plumber? If he's licensed as a journeyman he cannot install plumbing without being under the supervision of a master so even if you pulled he permit, he can't do the work. If he is licensed, he should be hauled in front of the board for disciplinary action. There's a bunch of things wrong with the installation and I suspect that now that an inspector has looked at it, you are going to have to hire someone one that knows what he's doing to straighten it out.
 

Giantsean

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Your handyman should have vented the toilet, which he could have done by running 2" to the lav and using the lav as a wet vent. That would require a 2" pipe, not 1.5"

The tub line is too low. And yes you are right, and your handyman is wrong. He should be coming here for advice, as he seems unaware of what fittings to use, how to vent, and how to run trap arms for tubs.
The horizontal santee below the flood level is wrong too. I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed with the guy you hired.

Thanks Terry. Yeah to be fair his idea WAS to run a wet vent in 2" from toilet to the existing venting but the town said it may be too much for it. I can try to run it by them again if it will work.

Can the sani-tee be fixed? I am not sure why we even bothered venting the tub that way (vs straight up) unless it was to save pipe. Not sure if there is a quick and dirty fix other than having to start all over. BTW there is a soffit below that runs down to the existing 4" stack in a downstairs bathroom so it could be major re-do in the worst case.
 

Giantsean

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What's a P2 plumber? If he's licensed as a journeyman he cannot install plumbing without being under the supervision of a master so even if you pulled he permit, he can't do the work. If he is licensed, he should be hauled in front of the board for disciplinary action. There's a bunch of things wrong with the installation and I suspect that now that an inspector has looked at it, you are going to have to hire someone one that knows what he's doing to straighten it out.

Yeah it was a friend of a friend thing, and yes "I" did the work. I was all ready to get in a master but I am totally underwater from being screwed over by my original builder that every little bit helps. But yeah, pay cheap pay twice. It stinks because he really seems like a good guy and any layperson would swear he knows what he's doing. Absolutely no issues up to this point (even the town only had those two issues - didn't say a word about anything else)
 

hj

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HE could have raised the tub drain, and vented off it in the same bay as the trap, then connected a 2" line to the toilet, for a vent, and ran to the wall, again in the same bay, with the lavatory connected to it. The left hand vent line is strictly decorative because it does not have any function the way it is installed. That way there would not have had to be ANY holes through the studs, (and only two through the bottom plate), and you would have had a much better drain system. Sometimes installers only know one way to do things and have no idea how to figure out better ones.
 

Giantsean

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HE could have raised the tub drain, and vented off it in the same bay as the trap, then connected a 2" line to the toilet, for a vent, and ran to the wall, again in the same bay, with the lavatory connected to it. The left hand vent line is strictly decorative because it does not have any function the way it is installed. That way there would not have had to be ANY holes through the studs, (and only two through the bottom plate), and you would have had a much better drain system. Sometimes installers only know one way to do things and have no idea how to figure out better ones.

Thanks... so worst fears realized of course (par for the course for this reno so far lol). Is it worth scrapping and starting the drains over? I can't unmake holes but I can insist he does it right. If we do it that way it sounds like we don't need to drill any more joists so I can just scab the existing holes and be done with it (I wouldn't even mind sistering but these joists are set on a block wall.

Are you thinking something like the attached? Only problem I can see with using the tub bay is that it is kind of cluttered now with the pipes and controls. That and the fact that the lav drain will now be lower than the tub drain. Note, I know the vents would probably need to meet higher up than illustrated but I ran out of room :)

You mention the left segment doesn't do anything now... what is actually venting the tub? The lavatory vent?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks again for all the great advice guys!
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hj

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The lav drain will go INTO the toilet vent and you can scrap all the white stuff in the wall, rxcept the pipe going to the roof after you connect the two vents together. DO NOT attach the lav to the tub and you will not have to worry about it being "lower" because it won't be there. You can offset the tub vent around the "controls" using 45 degree elbows. You can also angle the toilet vent to one side of the bay or the other at the lavatory, depending on which way makes it easier to make the sink connection.
 
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Giantsean

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The lav drain will go INTO the toilet vent and you can scrap all the white stuff in the wall, rxcept the pipe going to the roof after you connect the two vents together. DO NOT attach the lav to the tub and you will not have to worry about it being "lower" because it won't be there. You can offset the tub vent around the "controls" using 45 degree elbows. You can also angle the toilet vent to one side of the bay or the other at the lavatory, depending on which way makes it easier to make the sink connection.

Something like this? (and forgive the crude perspective - this is why I'm not a draftsman lol). So in essence the lav drain is the toilet vent (wet venting?)

I think I can make a tub vent fly like this if I build a little cripple to hold up the valve/diverter instead of spanning the studs like it is now, and moving the pex around a bit. The drain pipe will still be off center (21" instead of 18") unless we mess around w/ the soffit area downstairs but hopefully the tub drain and trap can be angled as long as the trap and pipe stay level.

Worth noting that the existing vent thru the roof is five-ish feet away from the one in these picture going into the attic. (it is actually inline with this same wall) If that is the case can I just take the tub vent up and over to that vent and ditch the existing two vertical pipes? I will try to keep the entire thing 2" where it will fit, but in worst case can go to 2" when the new toilet vent meets it.

So I'm either spot on or you're all laughing at my ignorance right about now :) Either way I do definitely need to do something about those joists... they are drilled to less than 2" to the edge which is not cool. Having four holes in the bottom plates kind of sucks too but a little easier to deal with.

Thanks very much again!


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Terry

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That looks way better.
The tub side vent can be 1.5" on the vent.
The toilet and lav vent there is 2" though the roof like you have it drawn.
 

Giantsean

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That looks way better.
The tub side vent can be 1.5" on the vent.
The toilet and lav vent there is 2" though the roof like you have it drawn.

So my last question is... how pissed am I that we didn't need to drill any joists whatsoever (and that they're drilled too low to boot!!!)

Ok so not really (but I'm still pissed). Please see below which better illustrates the layout of that room to the existing galvanized vent. It is almost exactly 5 feet from the current plastic pipe that goes up into the attic. The plan is to tie the new bathroom's venting to this galvanized pipe (with fernco's or by replacing the metal from the junction, whichever). Given the new drawing, does anyone see a problem with that?

From what I have read it's ok but better not to have surprises :)

Thanks a million again to everyone for the great feedback... you guys really are lifesavers!

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Couplings with a metal wrap then.
Or you can go plastic all the way out. You would still need at least one of these if you tie the galvanized to the plastic.
 

Giantsean

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Couplings with a metal wrap then.
Or you can go plastic all the way out. You would still need at least one of these if you tie the galvanized to the plastic.

That I can do!

Can I go 1.5" straight up into the attic from the tub vent and also take the 2" toilet vent up into the attic and 90 left over to meet it, then 2" to the galvanized pipe? (so long as it pitches up?) If so I will cut out all of those existing verticals in favor of the new stuff in their respective bays

Total side question while we have pics for context - I am considering replacing the existing copper supply for the tub in the 2nd bath (I'm standing in it when taking the picture of the galvanized vent) so I can knock out a wall downstairs. Right now it is 1/2" from the basement. I have 3/4" PEX coming up from the basement for the new bathroom which splits off to 1/2" for fixtures. Can I tee 1/2" PEX off that 3/4" for just that tub supply? (the other fixtures have their own copper so no need for more). Or is it better to run 1/2" from the basement?

Thanks yet again!
 

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Terry

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The vent comes off at the same level as the trap arm, not below.
When it's vented below, it can still siphon the trap. That's why your plumbing inspector said it was too low.
 

hj

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What is your problem with raising the tub drain. It is NOT fastened to anything so just pull it up and anchor it. This is getting much more difficult than it has to be. If you are having a problem with our descriptions, why not get a better plumber who DOES know how to do the easy way?
 

Terry

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Jadnashua

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Think of venting this way...it must always be vented before the drain line turns down, otherwise, it ends up being an S-trap. The trap arm can only be so long, and that depends on the diameter...there has to be a downwards slope to any horizontal branch of 2% (1/4"/foot), and for the trap to work, it must maintain an air space above the waste flow in the arm. The bigger the pipe, the longer you can go while still maintaining an air gap at the top of the flow.
 

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I mean if all his drains tied together under the floor, at the same level where they turn down, with a sani tee, or special stack fitting, the toilet, tub, and lav, and that drain line is vented at that point. If he is within the distances of that table from all his traps to the point they tie together. This post has probably taken 5 times as long to discuss it as it would have been to actually DO IT.
 
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