Tank leaking from top and related problems

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rick52768

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First, it is a 7 year old Lochinvar in which leaked in my unfinished basement. But the strange part is that it is leaking from what looks to be the top of the tank. It is not leaking from the connections that the plumber made to the tank. I am planning to verifying this tonight as I have removed the tank cover and the insulation near the pipes to better see what is happening. I could not break the fitting loose to tighten them just in case it was just a simple connection leak. So to resolve this and remove the cover I cut the CPVC with a ratcheting pipe cutter. It has lead to a strange issue at least in my mind. The water flows, not drips after hours with lots and lots of buckets full of water flow from the hot water connection to the house. The cold water inlet to the tank is shutoff and cut from the tank as well. Could water be coming from the mixing valves of the one knobs control sink and shower faucets? I have shut all of the water off in the house to solve the problem while I am not at the house. Thinking about going with one those hybrid/heat pump water heater. Here is the summary:
How could the top of the tank leak if it is not the fitting?
Is there a trick for one person to break the connections loose due the plumbers putty and the constant heat on the fitting?
How do you remove the threaded, silver colored nipple that does not have any flat spots?
Could the tank be leaking from the bottom but exiting the top of tank because it is sealed by the plastic tube and foam insulation?
 

Jadnashua

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Some sink and shower valves (and sometimes a washing machine connection) can allow water to cross-over. What you are seeing is proof of that fact. For the sink valves, try turning their hot water supply shutoff off. Wait a bit to see if the leak stops. If it does, you've found the valve that has an internal cross-over. It might require a new cartridge to fix it. It isn't as common to have shutoffs for tub/shower valves. If you've ruled out all of the sinks and washing machine, it's probably your shower valve(s).

The welds in the tank that hold the fitting may be a leak point, or anywhere else in the tank. If the external case is sealed well (most aren't great, but it could happen!), water could come out the top, but then, the insulation would have to be saturated. A source of water could be from condensation, but isn't very common in the winter time, since the air is typically drier. THe super cold water supply could have condensation on the outside, and drip down. That would only be happening while water was flowing, so you might not notice that dripping, but might see a water accumulation. It's also possible you got some condensation dripping down the flue. NOmally, things are hot enough so that does not happen, but it could also be snowmelt or rain coming down it as well when the tank is not running.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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a water heater leaks from the top when either the hot or cold or center ports get stress crack at the original welds
this happens from expansion and contraction..... ...

if it is a gas water heater it also has a chimmney weld that can get a stress crack in it..
you could have a leak at the threads but on average it is stress crack...

lochinvar water heaters are not a good brand sna 7 years is probably average for ont

this is not brain surgery
 

rick52768

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input nipple.jpg
output nipple.jpg
 

rick52768

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I had many trips outside to empty my bucket and shopvac. The heater is electric. My plans are to use the repair (compression) fitting and see if I can see the leak without heating the water, then ease into heating the water. If that does not show any issues and the compression fitting do not blow off then I will try to remove the nipples going into the water heater. What I am questioning now it the big difference in how many threads are showing on one nipple compared to the other. But I guess the output side nipple could be longer that the other. Going to use wet rags to protect the foam and CPVC and use a torch to break the fitting loose so I can inspect them. BTW, I cannot find the anode rod on this beast. There is only three fittings on top and none of the side. None of them look to have the ability to house a separate device to unscrew.
First photo is the input nipple and the second is the output side.
 

hj

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The anode rod is probably part of the cold, or hot, water nipple. Unless a thread is leaking, which is highly unlikely, the tank is not repairable.
 

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Some tanks have a combo/outlet anode where the anode is combined with the outlet nipple. You can check for that by pushing a rod into the nipple. If you hit something a couple inches in, then you have one of those. Regular hex top anodes are usually way over-torqued in, and after a few years pretty much needs a moderate sized impact wrench to remove them. I think in putting anodes back in, 10 ft-lbs is enough. While the original did not have Teflon tape, I used the tape when I put in my powered anode. There needs to be good electrical contact, but it does not take much torque for the tapered threads to cut through the tape and make electrical contact.

You might search for nipple extractor for some ideas.
 

rick52768

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Well, after filling the tank, using my ears and removing some foam the problem is the weld point where the cylinder portion of tank meets the top dome. She is a goner. But while I wait for Lowes to deliver my new one so I can install it likely tomorrow or Tuesday I wish to resolve which mixing valve is allowing cold water back down the hot water connection for the house at the tank. I will try cutting off all of shutoff valve at each sink and the washing machine as Jim DeBruycker said above. If there is still water coming out of the hot water output pipe how can I test or figure out which of the three delta 1400 series showers is causing the issue? Sorry for asking ahead of testing with the sinks out of the picture, but I have a lot of snow to remove so the water heater can be delivered to the backyard access of the basement. Thanks

PS. There is no shutoff valves for the showers.
 

Reach4

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Idea: You could feel the hot water lines at each shower. The ones with no flow for a long time would be at room temperature. The hot water line with cold flowing into it nearby should be the coldest. Similarly, the cold water lines with no flow for a long time should be room temperature. Maybe you could get a cheap IR thermometer if feeling the temperatures does not work so well.
 

Terry

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Since you are replacing the tank, why not take it out of the loop by capping the hot near the tank? At some point it will need to be cut anyway.
 

rick52768

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Turning all supply lines off other than the showers confirmed that the leak is one or more of the shower mixing valves. With the instant read IR thermometer and the bezel removed I may be able to test in the matter you spoke of Reach4. As I have no direct access to the supply lines of the showers. Could a similar trick of timing how long it takes to get hot water at each shower location? I guess buying a replacement cartridge and trying it in each location would work as well. Still not 100% that it is the problem and swapping parts in and out sounds like a bad idea.
 

rick52768

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So it would not be mixing hot and cold when the faucet is turned off. If that is correct, then I will not worry about fixing it. Wasting energy (money) from losing hot water is my main concern.
 

Reach4

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You think that your original unwanted flow description was from only when warm water was being used in the house?
 

rick52768

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Not sure what you meant, but I have water flowing from the pipe normally connected to the heated output of the water heater and is the source of hot water for the house. This pipe has been cut from the hot water heater and hangs from my ceiling. The supply for the water heater is cut as well and shut off. There are no faucets, showers, dishwasher, washing machines or toilets running. But anytime I have the main water to the house turned on, there is always water flowing from this pipe. It takes less than a minute for this to start happening after I have turned the main supply to the house on.
 

Jadnashua

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One or more of your valves in the house has a cross-over and should be repaired. Depending on how large of a volume, it could mean lukewarm water in the whole system since it would act like a failed tempering valve...always mixing in some cold to the hot supply when you are using some water someplace. A good IR thermometer should work to identify the culprit. After a delay, both the hot and cold supplies should be room temperature. ANy that are hotter than that bear closer scrutiny. In effect, because of that, you're not getting the full hot water temp everywhere. It will likely only get worse.

FWIW, to get that nipple out of there, you have to remove the upper pipe first, and that may require cutting it someplace to get it out of the way. In most places, you are not allowed CPVC (is that the type of supply pipe?) within 18" of the WH, at least on gas-fired ones...I think that it also applies to electric, but am not positive. When you put it back, IF you local codes allow the use of flexible lines, consider using some flex copper lines for that last bit on both hot and cold.
 

Reach4

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Not sure what you meant, but I have water flowing from the pipe normally connected to the heated output of the water heater and is the source of hot water for the house. This pipe has been cut from the hot water heater and hangs from my ceiling. The supply for the water heater is cut as well and shut off. There are no faucets, showers, dishwasher, washing machines or toilets running. But anytime I have the main water to the house turned on, there is always water flowing from this pipe. It takes less than a minute for this to start happening after I have turned the main supply to the house on.

So cold is crossing over to hot, even when no faucet is on. That is not normal. I would resume troubleshooting.
 

rick52768

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cpvc.jpg

I will report my temperature readings when I have the system back online. I may try to listen for flow at the valves tomorrow as the water heater will be delivered Tuesday.
It was and likely still is code where I live to have CPVC that close to the tank on a electric water heater. Here is what the CPVC which was the closest to the tank. I will have to check before I install it and get inspected. The bottom one is on the output side and the top one is the inlet side. Both are badly discolored and the output side chipped on the inside when I cut it. I may go with 20" of copper line before I switch over to CPVC. Not sure if I like the sound of flex lines as that sounds like a weak point. Just not something I have any knowledge of using. In fact, I am not sure if I really like coated PVC, but that is for another day.
 

Jadnashua

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IF the thermostat in the WH fails, and it continues to heat when it should be off, before the safety valve opens, the piping to and from the tank can become VERY hot...over their rated operating temperature...copper will act like a radiator, helping to keep the plastic pipe within its safety zone, at least while not drawing that hot water off (i.e., static, no-flow). If you read here, you'll find that Terry usually uses copper flex lines when he connects WH...while they do make flex hoses...these are essentially solid copper that is corrugated to allow it to be bent. Always replace them when replacing the WH, as they can work harden, and don't bend as well after that happens, and can crack if you try to rebend them later. But for a one-time use...they work great IF you local code allows flex. Flex is more common, and may be required where earthquakes are common, but they'll feasibly work anywhere, but some jurisdictions require it to be hard piped, just like some require flexible.
 
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