My New Toilets

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Plumbs Away

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I just replaced my three toilets and decided to go with a variety. I am pleasantly pleased with all three. I got the American Standard Champion 4 one-piece right-height elongated, the American Standard Vormax Optum, also right-height and elongated, and the AquaSource $99 comfort height elongated special. They all more than exceed expectations. At $288, the Vormax is my favorite. The Champion 4 is more attractive, to me anyway, but it was a LOT more money. The AquaSource was the biggest surprise because of the price. I didn't care for the included seat, so I upgraded that and I replaced the plastic flush lever with a nicer and sturdier Danco metal flush lever for $4.79. No, I didn't go with the plumbing brand named for Dorothy's dog, but then I don't drive a Lincoln or a Caddy either. I also used the Sani Seal because I HATE wax rings. Those things are genius!
 

SteveW

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I just replaced my three toilets and decided to go with a variety. I am pleasantly pleased with all three. I got the American Standard Champion 4 one-piece right-height elongated, the American Standard Vormax Optum, also right-height and elongated, and the AquaSource $99 comfort height elongated special. They all more than exceed expectations. At $288, the Vormax is my favorite. The Champion 4 is more attractive, to me anyway, but it was a LOT more money. The AquaSource was the biggest surprise because of the price. I didn't care for the included seat, so I upgraded that and I replaced the plastic flush lever with a nicer and sturdier Danco metal flush lever for $4.79. No, I didn't go with the plumbing brand named for Dorothy's dog, but then I don't drive a Lincoln or a Caddy either. I also used the Sani Seal because I HATE wax rings. Those things are genius!

Thanks for posting. Would be good to post your real--world experience with them over time. How well do the tank innards hold up? How's the bowl wash? Do they clog?

Time will tell. Hope you have a good experience with them. The reason Toto is so popular around here is the experience of at least some of the pros, and some of us homeowners, that Totos are free from hassle. They use very simple and readily replaceable fill valves and flappers, and just do their job effortlessly without clogging.
 

Plumbs Away

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Thanks for posting. Would be good to post your real--world experience with them over time. How well do the tank innards hold up? How's the bowl wash? Do they clog?

Time will tell. Hope you have a good experience with them. The reason Toto is so popular around here is the experience of at least some of the pros, and some of us homeowners, that Totos are free from hassle. They use very simple and readily replaceable fill valves and flappers, and just do their job effortlessly without clogging.
Of the three, the Vormax has the best bowl wash, hands down -- excellent, as a matter of fact. The Champion has a good bowl wash and the AquaSource is acceptable. By bowl wash, I'm referring to what's above the water line in the bowl. All three completely clear and rinse what's actually in the water. I have flushed an entire roll of toilet paper in both American Standards. I haven't tried it with the AquaSource because the trapway is smaller, but it handles whatever I drop in it.

Tank parts for the Champion 4 and the AquaSource are readily available. The double flapper assembly for the Vormax is $31. I don't anticipate needing it for awhile, but I intend to have it on hand, just in case.

It's not my intention to bad mouth Toto. I previously had a Drake and an Ultramax and was less than impressed. Just my personal experience.
 

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"It's not my intention to bad mouth Toto. Now I'm going to bad mouth Toto." Whatever.

If you think your Aquasource is a better toilet than a Drake, which, by the way, is less-expensive than either your Vormax or your Champion, more power to you. It's your choice and your perception and it's what makes the world go around.

I don't have the slightest idea what you mean by the Lincoln or Caddy comment, unless you're saying they are expensive. But you must not be saying that because you just paid more than a Toto costs for 2 of the 3 toilets you bought.
 

Plumbs Away

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"It's not my intention to bad mouth Toto. Now I'm going to bad mouth Toto." Whatever.

If you think your Aquasource is a better toilet than a Drake, which, by the way, is less-expensive than either your Vormax or your Champion, more power to you. It's your choice and your perception and it's what makes the world go around.

I don't have the slightest idea what you mean by the Lincoln or Caddy comment, unless you're saying they are expensive. But you must not be saying that because you just paid more than a Toto costs for 2 of the 3 toilets you bought.
Get defensive much??? I was NOT bad-mouthing Toto. I previously owned two of their most popular toilets and implied nothing more than that my expectations were not met.
 

SamC

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I'm curious about the Vormax. It looks from the pictures like one flapper is designed to open ahead of the other and one to close ahead of the other. If that is the case, could you describe what you see in the tank when it is flushed?
 

WJcandee

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Get defensive much??? I was NOT bad-mouthing Toto. I previously owned two of their most popular toilets and implied nothing more than that my expectations were not met.

Riiiiight...I'm "defensive". Great idea: attack the person not the message!! Genius! Leads to great and productive dialogue.

"I was less than impressed", an exact quotation, is saying something bad. Whatever.

Like I said, different people perceive things differently, and all that matters is that you're happy with your purchases.
 

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To clear up some erroneous information and misconception, here's the deal: The American Standard Vormax Optum is $288. The comparable Toto product, the Drake II (CST454CEFG#01) has a MSRP of $569. The American Standard Champion 4, one-piece, elongated comfort height (2034.014.020) has a MSRP of $681. The comparable Toto Ultramax's (MS854114SL#01) MSRP is $942. These prices are what is posted on the manufacturers' web sites. All but the Vormax can be purchased for less than the MSRP.

As for the AquaSource, it is not in the same league with American Standard or Toto, as far as contruction quality. But for folks who have to take finances into consideration, the AquaSource offers a LOT of bang for the buck.

Contrary to one member's observation, I am not knocking Toto. I prefer my American Standard toilets because they cost less and perform better -- for me.
 

Plumbs Away

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I'm curious about the Vormax. It looks from the pictures like one flapper is designed to open ahead of the other and one to close ahead of the other. If that is the case, could you describe what you see in the tank when it is flushed?
Sam, I am away from home for the holidays, but will check this out and post my observations when I return.
 

Wallijonn

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Would that be the AquaSource with the nicely curved trapway, or the AquaSource with the right-angle Kohler-like trapway?

I would never, ever, try flushing down a whole roll of toilet paper in any toilet. But, then again, I don't do dual ply paper, preferring Scott Towel 100 sheet single ply.

Good to know that the American Standard Vormax Optum is getting good reviews. Maybe AS can turn it around. Competition is good since it increases choice.
 

Jadnashua

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Few people ever pay retail for their Toto toilets. A good reference point on real world pricing is to check Terry's storefront. He does NOT ship, but it will give you an idea what they go for on the street, and it is NOT their retail prices! When you do that, you'd understand the comments on the real world prices...the Drake, at least in some configurations, can be had for less than what you paid for the toilets you do have now.
 

WJcandee

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Few people ever pay retail for their Toto toilets. A good reference point on real world pricing is to check Terry's storefront. He does NOT ship, but it will give you an idea what they go for on the street, and it is NOT their retail prices! When you do that, you'd understand the comments on the real world prices...the Drake, at least in some configurations, can be had for less than what you paid for the toilets you do have now.

To put an even finer point on it, the Drake II can be sourced in some places for as low as $325-ish. The Ultramax II for $435-ish, and both even a smidge less when the plumbing supply place is trying to reduce inventory. It's gonna vary from region to region and supplier to supplier, but, as with cars, it's rare to purchase something at MSRP. Terry's very-fair prices for these products are $399 and $499, respectively, and come with a lot of service and support, not a dump-it-off-the-liftgate-and-run approach. And Terry's prices mesh with some insanely-reasonable (at least to this New Yorker's mind) installation prices if you buy them from him. The bottom line is that one can get these things for prices well below the MSRP.
 

Plumbs Away

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Would that be the AquaSource with the nicely curved trapway, or the AquaSource with the right-angle Kohler-like trapway?

I would never, ever, try flushing down a whole roll of toilet paper in any toilet. But, then again, I don't do dual ply paper, preferring Scott Towel 100 sheet single ply.

Good to know that the American Standard Vormax Optum is getting good reviews. Maybe AS can turn it around. Competition is good since it increases choice.
Don't really know how to answer your question about the AquaSource trapway, especially since I think the exposed trapways are hideous looking -- regardless of brand. I'll try to post a picture so you can decide which model it is.
AquaSource.jpg

As for the flushing of the paper, it was probably not the brightest idea, but I had to see for myself. I had no problems, but I wouldn't recommend just anyone trying it. For each of those test flushes, I used a standard-sized roll of Charmin. Of course, I unrolled it and didn't just drop the unwound roll in the bowl.
 
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Plumbs Away

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Few people ever pay retail for their Toto toilets. A good reference point on real world pricing is to check Terry's storefront. He does NOT ship, but it will give you an idea what they go for on the street, and it is NOT their retail prices! When you do that, you'd understand the comments on the real world prices...the Drake, at least in some configurations, can be had for less than what you paid for the toilets you do have now.
I paid retail for my Vormax and my AquaSource because each is available only at one retailer for one price. I did not pay anywhere close to full retail for the Champion 4 and I know that Toto fixtures can be purchased for less than MSRP. I was a little nervous about the Champion 4 being shipped but, thankfully, there were no problems. The only issues, other than the ones I mentioned earlier about the AquaSource, were minor ones with the Champion 4. That monster is HEAVY! It actually takes up less space than the 1991 Cadet round bowl it replaced but it weighs 120 pounds and it was a lot of fun trying to guide it into place in its designated alcove. Also, and I'm assuming it's because of the 4-inch flapper, you have to use more pressure to actuate the flush. You don't have to hold it down, and it's not a big deal -- just a change to get used to.

By the way, if anyone's interested in a used 1991 white AS Cadet round bowl, with a vintage Sears Sculptura lift-off plastic seat, also white, let me know. It's getting a good acid wash and all new tank parts and going on the market. There's an identical one on THE online auction site for $795, minus the seat, but with free shipping. Do I hear $845??? Maybe if I can get enough for it, I'll swap out the AquaSource for a Neorest. LOL!!!
 

Plumbs Away

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I'm curious about the Vormax. It looks from the pictures like one flapper is designed to open ahead of the other and one to close ahead of the other. If that is the case, could you describe what you see in the tank when it is flushed?
SamC, this is not my toilet, but from my recollection when I installed it, mine operates just like this one. Again, I will look when I get back home and will report any noticeable differences.

My only complaint about the Vormax is the included seat. It looks nice and it is slow-close, but I think it's a little flimsy. The Champion 4 did not include the seat. I got a Kohler with a night light (but not the air freshener). My advice: Don't waste your money. Get an automatic night light (on in the dark, off when it's light). Save a lot of money and it puts out more light. Plus, the Kohler night light seat is not as sturdy as I like. Both it and the Vormax seat are getting replaced with Kohler's French Curve slow close, quick release.
 

Terry

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Toto has a good PR department. I have only installed about a half dozen of them. I have other brands I use which seem to outperform the Toto for a lot less money.

Yes. Well, some days we may install 8 or more
 
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Wallijonn

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...I think the exposed trapways are hideous looking.

As someone who had some non-exposed trapway Briggs that didn't flush worth a darn, if I can't see the trapway I won't buy it. :D Yes, even Toto. Kohlers? Forgetaboutit.

I've raved about the short inverted exposed "U" trapway of a certain Eljer toilet at work that is no longer made - every time I look at it it is with a sense of deep appreciation. 1.6 gpf and the maintenance man has it set for about an 0.8 gpf rate. Works like a champ. Non-siphon.
 
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Plumbs Away

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As someone who had some non-exposed trapway Briggs that didn't flush worth a darn, if I can't see the trapway I won't buy it. :D Yes, even Toto. Kohlers? Forgetaboutit.

I've raved about the short inverted exposed "U" trapway of a certain Eljer toilet at work that is no longer made - every time I look at it it is with a sense of deep appreciation. 1.6 gpf and the maintenance man has it set for about an 0.8 gpf rate. Works like a champ. Non-siphon.
I hear you. Some of the newer ones I've seen with the concealed trapway are kinda scary looking. It's one of the things I miss about the toilets of yesteryear when the concealed trapway was the norm. The house I grew up in had 1963 Kohler Wellworths -- in lovely pastel colors, of course. But that unfortunate-looking gnarled and twisted turkey neck was not visible.
 
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Plumbs Away

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Sam, I am away from home for the holidays, but will check this out and post my observations when I return.
Sam, I checked the tank operation of my Vormax and it is exactly as shown in the video clip I uploaded. The black flapper raises just slightly ahead of the red one and the red one drops just slightly ahead of the black.
 
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