Question about the American Standard Saver White

[John Q Florida]

Wow, what a great site! Congratulations to the operator,and thanks to all the participants! I like the straight talk, and the level of expertise here.

I have a question: Because it's ever so slightly easier to get my hands on one by driving a few minutes to a store, where returns are easy, etc., and the forms for the water savings rebate are immediately available, and on and on, a local store sells a model called the American Standard Saver White, for 179, and it's listed with a 1000 gram MaP score. (Additional info: Their site say it uses the "Cadet 3" flushing system, and say it in a way as if that's a good thing)

• Item #: 338259
• Model #: 710FA.101.02

From reading, I know the general consensus is "buy the Toto", but I'm curious about a couple things: I'm assuming they (American Standard) can't fabricate the 1000 MaP score out of thin air, so how would a model like this compare against the Toto? (As you can tell, I'm starting at the price of the Entrada and going downward for my budget).

Like many people, I'm coming from god-awful as my current state of flushing effectiveness for one of the bathrooms, so I know almost anything will be a revolutionary improvement over where I am today, but I'm still partial to doing my homework and getting as good a product that I can for the price. Thanks in advance!

 

[WJcandee]

Ask the store what their price is on a Toto Entrada, and give them the model number and color that you want. They can usually get it through their supplier. Also, you probably have a few plumbing supply places near you that you don't even know about. Pull out the yellow pages and try them. Shop around on prices. I almost fell over dead when I saw that HD was selling the Entrada elongated for MORE than the original Drake. Huh? No way. Okay, price the Drake, too.

Search my recent posts for more suggestions about how to shop.

Oh, yeah. Get the Toto. American Standard's quality control has been hit or miss the last few years, even if it is getting a little better.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John Q Florida]

Search my recent posts for more suggestions about how to shop.

Thanks for the reply. I did see where Home Depot sells Toto's, but for the moment, I'm trying to avoid special order (the only way they sell them here).

Regarding your advice of calling 5 places... Great advice, and I bet that'll work great on Friday or next Monday. As of right now, the day before Christmas, by my calculations, I'm going to have to call 50 places to reach 5 of them who are open today, because as it stands, 90 percent of all supply places are closed today. I have gotten hold of the people who don't have it and the jerky salesperson though, so I'm partway there!

 

[Wallijonn]

Before buying you have to ask whether or not a defective toilet can be returned. If they say no, then don't bother buying from them.

Typically Lowe's & HomeDepot get seconds and thirds so it may be better to buy from a plumbing place, hopefully one that will guarantee a return. You will pay more but your chances of getting a first rate toilet should be much better. The video shows he got it from CostCo, so maybe they're selling seconds and thirds, too.

The reason why most of us suggest the Toto is because Toto's failure rate is minimal, although every now and then a bad one probably gets out into the wild. I like to think that Totos have a less than 5% failure rate.

 

[Terry]

I like to think that Totos have a less than 5% failure rate.

The stuff I pick up that is TOTO is less than 1% failure. Way less.

 

[Wallijonn]

Since doing the YouTube vid search doesn't bring up the Cadet 3 vid,

Wonder why he didn't just get another bowl? Well, we all know why - he didn't trust the brand any longer, he feared that another bowl would do the same thing.

 

[John Q Florida]

...Because it's ever so slightly easier to get my hands on one by driving a few minutes to a store

Thanks again to all who replied. My original post is now enormously prophetic. To quote one salesperson, who can get them by special order, "they're not real big in the south". A.k.a, even the wholesaler I found, has to get them from somewhere else. (One upscale place in a wealthy retirement community an hour away has the regular Drake for $370).

So next question: How well are they packed, assuming I (a) don't just cave in and get an easily available item, and (b) get one online? The stakes get pretty high if something's wrong with a toilet via mail order.

 

[Wallijonn]

I'd guess that there is a 95% chance that it will arrive broken.

"They're not real big in the south"? Toto has a plant in Georgia -

• 1155 Southern Rd
  Morrow, GA 30260

http://www.totousa.com/find-a-showr...uct_types_value=&field_toto_gallery_value=All

If I lived in Florida I'd drive to Georgia and pick them up myself. Ever take a drive to Atlanta?

 

[WJcandee]

The danger is that they will arrive broken (anywhere from 15-40 percent) from where you mentioned and from the other big national distributor that you will notice online, but a major reason we discourage the practice is that we are in favor of shopping local and employing local folks at fair prices and keeping them in business and paying sales taxes. Once you really do your research locally if you can't find anybody who demonstrates that they want your business, you are of course free to try whatever channel you feel works best for you. But I would really make an effort to find someone local other than Home Depot. "Special Ordering" from Home Depot is no big deal; it's exactly the same as finding the thing online at the HD site and saying you'll pick it up in the store. They just get it from their distributor, just like they would if they were out of stock on a model they sell regularly. But they aren't a great choice when you can get it from a good local guy once you find him.

It is amazing that so many local vendors do such a poor job of interfacing with the general public. It's as if they only want to service the trades and just hate people who aren't like them. The funny thing, though, is that you have no way of knowing until you try. Some of the nicest, fairest, most general-public-oriented plumbing supply places LOOK completely-foreboding to a consumer, like wearing a suit and walking into a dive bar with 50 motorcycles parked out front. And some of the worst jerks own showrooms that look like you would be welcome. That's why the Yellow Pages and phone work so well, and why I encourage people to keep trying locally, because if you can find that one great vendor, you'll go back to them again and again, and recommend them to friends, and help build their business like they deserve.

As Wallijohn points out, Toto is HEADQUARTERED near Atlanta, and has a huge, state of the art factory there. Also, if your vendor ever took Delta Airlines or Airtran anywhere, he would know that Toto completely-refurbished the Atlanta airport, with Toto toilets, urinals, sinks, faucets and auto-flush valves in every restroom in the entire airport. We can debate whether Louisville is in the South, but Atlanta sure is. So definitely place that vendor into the "not good" category.

Anyway, let us know how it goes!

 

[John Q Florida]

Again, thanks for the thoughts, all points worth considering.

At the same time, let's be fair: 95 percent damage rate via shipping? 40 percent? C'mon, guys: Yes, local people deserve to make a living, and us cheapskates have to know when to spend an extra buck or two for service & support (that's why I posted here to begin with), but keep the exaggeration in check, wouldja? 5.1 percent is still an extremely high damage (and inconvenience) rate for something that is such a hassle to return or contend with, and that's what my analysis of all 213 reviews shows. I read them all, and also did a search on the reviews for the words "crack", "broke", and "damage" (it finds the past tense versions too), and between the searches plus my reading them all, among the 213 reviews and eliminating the ones who used more than one of the terms, 11 of them, or 5.1 percent (rounded) arrived broken. (And as I said, that's still worrying enough to think twice about ordering online). Other interesting sidenotes: several of these people who dealt with damaged items still gave 5 stars. 3 of 213 had problems with leaks or other defects, btw, 1.4 percent defect rate.

So anyway, just a request: you can still stick with the facts, and Toto will still make a great toilet, and a 1 in 20 chance of having to ship a toilet back is still pretty darn close to a deal breaker for most people. One shipping fee, one additional wait on delivery without a working toilet, is a lot to contend with, and most of us will think twice if there's even a small chance of something going wrong.

And regarding the regional thing: Toto's are very hard to find here in Tampa Florida. Of the 4 out of 10 dealers listed on Toto's find a showroom feature within 100 miles who were open on Friday, none (0) had Toto's on display or in stock (I would have thought they were obligated to have them, in order to be listed on Toto's website). All were by order only. As of this moment, still technically the holiday season where many stores are closed, I've still only found one, an hours drive away, with an actual Toto in stock.

www.totousa.com website review and helpful tip: New users/guests to www.totousa.com, the "find a showroom" feature does actually work, you just have to be patient enough to wait (because it's kinda slow), and also scroll down not just the list, but the entire page too (terrible web design). This is what happens when the web designer is (a) bad, and (b) given too big a screen. They create websites that work find on their own big screen (the site was built for a 1600 by 1200 display), and doesn't fit properly on anything smaller, thereby requiring double-scrollinug. Regulars on this forum already know this, of course, but I can attest from personal experience, it's very easy for a new visitor to not realize the find a showroom feature functions properly. By default, first visit, with no zip code entered, it shows 4 dealers total, making you snicker and think there are no participating dealers. Maybe you try a search, but not expecting to have to double-scroll, you may not even see the search results (or may not feel like waiting for them to appear so slowly). It was my third visit (thanks to WalliJohn's link) before I realized the search feature actually was functional. Hopefully, as such a strong ambassador for Toto, someone from Toto frequents this forum. Hopefully, they will fire the web designer, fix the slowness of the site, and delete dealers from the listing who don't stock your items. Heck, they can hire the web designer from terrylove.com, it's faster and more usable than Toto's!

And again, thanks for all the helpful posts.

 

[Wallijonn]

... let's be fair: 95 percent damage rate via shipping?

That is what the owner of the place where I bought my Toto said. He said that he tried on-line selling and got a 95% return breakage rate - so he gave up selling on-line. American Plumbing Supply, Phoenix, AZ, if any one is interested. Wonderful old man...The railroad tracks are right across the street, so chances are that they are coming off right out of the RR container. :hint:

After getting a quote for $800 for a Drake from one place (and another for $400 at another place) I asked the Maintenance guy at work where he got his toilets and he gave me the referral. Their price was nice ($250 for the Drake ADA 1.6gpf). I had them deliver the toilet to my house and gave the driver a $20 tip. 7 miles from the store to my house. The first Drake my friend picked up for me, since he has a pickup and I have a small sports car, and I gave him a $20 tip. I got a free wax ring, 1/4 turn faucet and 3/16" flange bolts for free with both Drakes. Maybe I should have held out for free hoses, too.

I decided to go local after having an online order broken in transit. I waited all day and it was never delivered. I got a call after 5PM from the sub-contractor delivery service telling me that it had broken in transit to my house. I promptly cancelled the order. Good thing too, since originally it was a Kohler Santa Rosa. Heck, I love my Totos so much that I am already planning of taking them with me if I should move to another house - I'll just throw in some cheap $90 toilets from Home Depot or Lowe's before I turn over the keys.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....shed-from-amazon-what-a-disappointment.57691/

 

[WJcandee]

Hey, John. A buddy of mine got out of the business of shipping toilets, and he put it at 40 percent returns, even when he make efforts to preserve the stuff.

What can I say? Believe what you want to believe. That the online prices have skyrocketed across all brands is an indication that there is a high breakage rate. I said 15-40 percent. I have purchased three online and they have all arrived intact. I know people who have purchased two online and both arrived broken.

It's well above the percentage that you say would disqualify most people from purchasing online. Which is why it isn't typically discussed by the online merchants and why it comes as a surprise to most people.

I think I gave you a fair overview of the ACTUAL marketplace. Hit-or-miss local ripoff artists in some places and nice affordable people in others. Affordable online purchasing that may involve shipping pieces of porcelain back to the seller. Hit or miss prices at the big boxes. HD's toto prices make absolutely no sense whatsoever. There it is -- caveat emptor.