Picture of CSV installation - Setup isn't working properly what needs changing.

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Boyblue

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My first CSV installation went perfectly but this second install is not working right. The first was a brand new submersible setup but this second is a modification to an exsisting jet pump system.

This is a CSV 125-50. The pump cuts in at 40 and while the water is running the pressure guage stays at 40 psi (it does not go to 50). When the water is turned off the the pressure is increased untill the pump cuts out at 60.

There seems to be more vibration in the pipes than there should be and as the pump kicks in the guage dips to zero momenterily. Are these facts any indication of an issue?

Firstly is there anything that is obviously wrong? Are there any adjustments you'd reccommend?

I'm thinking I'll change that plastic line from the pressure switch to copper. Will that make a difference?

The CVS chat person instructed me to bypass the pressure switch on the pump and install one near the tank, but then they said that the line from switch on the pump to the front of the tank is ok (I was trying to save having to buy another Switch) . Is it ok?

Should the gauge be before the tank and the connection the the switch after? Should they both be before the tank?
 

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Reach4

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I wonder if you could have a 12540 (40 PSI CSV) rather than a 12550 (50 PSI CSV) ? That would explain most of the description. You might try setting your pressure switch to 30-50, and adjust the precharge on your pressure tank accordingly.

How long does the climb from 40PSI to 60 PSI take?

Also, what is the pre-charge on your pressure tank? If it is at 38, maybe try dropping it to 37 to account for possible difference in in pressure gauges, plus maybe there is a slight delay in your pressure switch responding due to that small tube that carries the water pressure over to the pressure switch. This is to address the "gauge dips to zero momentarily" problem.

Switching that line from plastic to copper will only help if the ID of the line gets bigger.
 
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Boyblue

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Was the pump able to maintain 50-60 psi while water was running before the CSV was installed?

It did, as a matter of fact they had it set to cut out at 68 psi.

However, I turned the breaker off and was supplying them from my setup next door while I redid their system. When I got back to it, the breaker had been turned back on and the pump was running - I don't know how long but had to be running dry.


Just curious why you installed a CSV in the first place on that system.

This is a home with a lot of bodies and where there are people there throughout the day. I thought it would even out their pressure and extend the life of the pump. I used a larger than necessary tank because of occaisional power outages.
 

Craigpump

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I dont see how that CSV is preventing the pump from making pressure. Are you sure water isn't running someplace?

Any doubt about the CSV, take it out and see what happens.
 

Boyblue

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I dont see how that CSV is preventing the pump from making pressure. Are you sure water isn't running someplace?

Any doubt about the CSV, take it out and see what happens.
I thought about that but I'll have to cut it out. Before I did that I thought I'd try putting in a switch close to the tank and putting the gauge before the tank.
 

Reach4

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No comment on my thought that you actually got a 40 PSI CSV?
 

Valveman

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Reach maybe right. It is possible there was a 40# spring in a container full of 50# springs. However, every valve is pressure and flow tested so it would have also had to been missed in the test. Possible but not common.

If that is the case, and with that size tank, it should be taking 5+ minutes to fill to 60 before it shuts off. If its holding 40 while a shower is on, and takes 5 minutes to fill the tank, you should call for a warranty replacement and get the right pressure valve.

If it is not taking 5 minutes to fill the tank and you have the correct 35 pounds of air in the tank, check your pressure gauge.

Too much air in the tank can also cause the gauge to dip to zero and the pipes to shake as the pump is starting.

Oh and the tube to the pressure switch looks good.
 

Boyblue

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I dont see how that CSV is preventing the pump from making pressure. Are you sure water isn't running someplace?

Any doubt about the CSV, take it out and see what happens.
I have the supply going to the house cut off so the only place the water can be going is the tank.
 

Boyblue

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No comment on my thought that you actually got a 40 PSI CSV?
It's labeled 125-50 - I know that may still be an error but there's more. I'll include more detail below once I've answered the individual questions (Which I really appreciate) - Got busy & couldn't get back to you guys.
 

Boyblue

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Reach maybe right. It is possible there was a 40# spring in a container full of 50# springs. However, every valve is pressure and flow tested so it would have also had to been missed in the test. Possible but not common.

If that is the case, and with that size tank, it should be taking 5+ minutes to fill to 60 before it shuts off. If its holding 40 while a shower is on, and takes 5 minutes to fill the tank, you should call for a warranty replacement and get the right pressure valve.

If it is not taking 5 minutes to fill the tank and you have the correct 35 pounds of air in the tank, check your pressure gauge.

Too much air in the tank can also cause the gauge to dip to zero and the pipes to shake as the pump is starting.

Oh and the tube to the pressure switch looks good.

You are amazing ! How do you know so much :)

Here are my observations.


Tank pressure with no water in tank is 46 psi
Cut in is is at 40 psi with a dip to 10 psi at startup
Cut out is at 60 psi
When the drain at the tank is opened pressure stays at 40 psi
...but with the drain opened all the way & a hose attached the pressure climbs to 45 psi
If I turn the tap down to the point where it's putting out 5 GPM the pressure climbs to 50 psi

Three different measurements:
1st - 40 psi to 60 psi - it took 3 min 22 sec
2nd - 50 psi to 60 psi - it took 3 min 28 sec
3rd - 50 psi to 60 psi - it took 3 min 22 sec

One last thing I noticed is that as the tank is being drained, every time it gets to 42 psi there is a weird movement of the needle - a blip.
 

Reach4

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1>Tank pressure with no water in tank is 46 psi
2>Cut in is is at 40 psi with a dip to 10 psi at startup
3>Cut out is at 60 psi
4>When the drain at the tank is opened pressure stays at 40 psi
5>...but with the drain opened all the way & a hose attached the pressure climbs to 45 psi
1. This is your precharge air pressure if I read correctly. If you keep your cut in at 40 PSI, you should drop the air pressure to 38 PSI while water pressure=0.
4. It seems that you are saying that with the pump running, and the drain faucet spilling water to the ground at maybe 5 gallons per minute, the water pressure stays at 40 PSI. But if there is a hose attached, which adds a little backpressure dropping the flow to maybe 3 GPM, the pressure gauge at the tank reads 45 PSI.

Your measurements this time seem to give a different picture, and based on this I no longer am thinking that your CSV was accidentally set to 40 PSI.

Regarding your measurements, what would the 40 to 50 PSI time be? From your figures it looks like that might be near zero, which does not seem right.
 

LLigetfa

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1. This is your precharge air pressure if I read correctly. If you keep your cut in at 40 PSI, you should drop the air pressure to 38 PSI while water pressure=0...
Actually, with a jet pump you should drop the precharge lower. I would go 5 below assuming that the air gauge is calibrated to the water gauge.
 

Texas Wellman

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Your precharge is too high. The blip is caused because all of the water is expelled from the tank a split second before the pump comes on.
 

Boyblue

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1. This is your precharge air pressure if I read correctly. If you keep your cut in at 40 PSI, you should drop the air pressure to 38 PSI while water pressure=0.

Yes - Precharge is 46 psi

4. It seems that you are saying that with the pump running, and the drain faucet spilling water to the ground at maybe 5 gallons per minute, the water pressure stays at 40 PSI.
It's 10 to 11 GPM.

But if there is a hose attached, which adds a little backpressure dropping the flow to maybe 3 GPM, the pressure gauge at the tank reads 45 PSI.

I didn't measure the GPM with the hose attached but it seemed to be pretty close to that 10 GPM - I'd guess 8 or 9 GPM and yes the pressure goes up to a steady 45 psi

Your measurements this time seem to give a different picture, and based on this I no longer am thinking that your CSV was accidentally set to 40 PSI.

Agreed - When I reduce the output to 5 GPM the pressure goes to 50 psi

Regarding your measurements, what would the 40 to 50 PSI time be? From your figures it looks like that might be near zero, which does not seem right.

I agree the test result are not consistent but I don't think we can combine them. I estimate (from memory) that the time going from 40 to 50 psi is not much, it seems like the increase to 60 psi is logarithmic (progress slows as it approaches 60)
 

Boyblue

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Actually, with a jet pump you should drop the precharge lower. I would go 5 below assuming that the air gauge is calibrated to the water gauge.
I don't have a compressor so I'll reduce it to 38 and check everything out. What would be the benefit of reducing it to 35?
 

Boyblue

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Your precharge is too high. The blip is caused because all of the water is expelled from the tank a split second before the pump comes on.
Understood - Thanks guys, you covered every issue. I'll reduce the precharge to 38 test everything. this time I'll time 40 to 50 and then 50 to 60 on the same cycle.
 

Reach4

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I don't have a compressor so I'll reduce it to 38 and check everything out. What would be the benefit of reducing it to 35?
LLigetfa is implying that it takes a 2-pipe jet pump has a significant delay in supplying water compared to a submersible pump. He has knowledge such pumps. It makes sense now that he points that out. If the precharge is not low enough to let the pressure tank supply water until the pump can supply the demand, you will get a pressure dip because the pressure tank is empty of water. If you have time to tweak, you could start at 38. If you get a dip, try 37. Repeat up to twice more. Ideally the test would be performed at a high water draw, because that means the tank must supply more water in a given amount of time. If the precharge is too low, there will be more stretching of the diaphragm at 60 PSI, which would be expected to affect the life of the diaphragm. So you don't want to go too low.
 

LLigetfa

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LLigetfa is implying that it takes a 2-pipe jet pump has a significant delay in supplying water compared to a submersible pump. He has knowledge such pumps. It makes sense now that he points that out. If the precharge is not low enough to let the pressure tank supply water until the pump can supply the demand, you will get a pressure dip because the pressure tank is empty of water. If you have time to tweak, you could start at 38. If you get a dip, try 37. Repeat up to twice more. Ideally the test would be performed at a high water draw, because that means the tank must supply more water in a given amount of time. If the precharge is too low, there will be more stretching of the diaphragm at 60 PSI, which would be expected to affect the life of the diaphragm. So you don't want to go too low.
Exactly as Reach4 stated. A jet pump uses pressure to make more pressure and volume, so it needs the reserve in the tank to not nose-dive. 2 PSI below is OK for a sub but it could be shaved too close for a jet. Gauges are not that precise to begin with and neither is the pressure switch so that 2 PSI of reserve might not always be there.
 
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