Eurob
master tile and stone installer
Can't wait to see '' What John is cooking ! '' 
Framing for an under mount tub installation
- Thread starter JohnfrWhipple
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JohnfrWhipple
BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
I'm cooking up a new one alright. Roberto you must have seen the new discussion on the Kohler Undermount Tub.
As far as framing requirements from Kohler they are pretty basic. Wood Bracing must be used. I guess this means no foam backer board.
Kohler requires no waterproofing. No capillary breaks. Low end chaulk (for easy removal later). And a file.... Still don't know what that's for.
Check out my latest Kohler Undermount tub install here:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....nt-tub-installation-template-s-892-899.59293/
In my research I found out that Kohler requires an access panel both in the front and from the ass end. That is not going to happen. The builder installed a bench in front and used a 2"x6" cleat pinned to the end of the framing for the undermount tub. That then got filled with heating and concrete by me.
Covered by Laticrete Hydro ban Sheet membrane. Soon to be topped with stone and glass. Floor has 1.5" of concrete onto of it. Oh man.
I think with these air tubs you need to plan the ass end of the tub so it hits a wall. Then the access can be in the bedroom or hall. Not the steam shower 22" under a shower bench.
I was brought in late to this job. Had no say in what fixtures were ordered. Did none of the framing. Anticapting a future repair I better make allowances for an access panel from the face. Maybe I should cut the access hole. Vapour proof it. Then cover that with a new piece of vapour proofing. Then later if we need to get it I can cut out the stone and there will be fresh material to re waterproof to.
Hmmmmm.....
As far as framing requirements from Kohler they are pretty basic. Wood Bracing must be used. I guess this means no foam backer board.
Kohler requires no waterproofing. No capillary breaks. Low end chaulk (for easy removal later). And a file.... Still don't know what that's for.
Check out my latest Kohler Undermount tub install here:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....nt-tub-installation-template-s-892-899.59293/
In my research I found out that Kohler requires an access panel both in the front and from the ass end. That is not going to happen. The builder installed a bench in front and used a 2"x6" cleat pinned to the end of the framing for the undermount tub. That then got filled with heating and concrete by me.
Covered by Laticrete Hydro ban Sheet membrane. Soon to be topped with stone and glass. Floor has 1.5" of concrete onto of it. Oh man.
I think with these air tubs you need to plan the ass end of the tub so it hits a wall. Then the access can be in the bedroom or hall. Not the steam shower 22" under a shower bench.
I was brought in late to this job. Had no say in what fixtures were ordered. Did none of the framing. Anticapting a future repair I better make allowances for an access panel from the face. Maybe I should cut the access hole. Vapour proof it. Then cover that with a new piece of vapour proofing. Then later if we need to get it I can cut out the stone and there will be fresh material to re waterproof to.
Hmmmmm.....
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JohnfrWhipple
BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
This shower will be ready for use today. The tile setter came back yesterday and did all his silicone work after the cleaning crew cleaned up the mess. Looks like the painter still needs to do some work and the glass order needs to arrive - but seeing how this tub is placed inside the shower and the shower is a barrier free curbless model (Hobless) it can be used right away.
I'll get some better pictures tonight. What a battle. I worked on this job for well over a year with the builder. From design to completion.
Here is a look at the latest undermount tub install. The framing for this one was basic. 2"x6" studs with plywood. I raised the height of the perimeter with mortar and waterproofed everything later with Ardex 8+9 and some SK 25 Mesh. The shower's primary waterproofing system is by Noble Company. I used NobleSeal CIS for this and switched out the walls to Ardex 8+9. Capillary break by Schluter. Linear drain (best in class) by ACO. The drain is the tile insert. Still need to increase the flow rate of this for safety.
The design for this bathroom is one some many people are calling me about. The tub is inside the shower. The room is barrier free, yet the shower design is old school. This builder signed up to view my install photos 14 months ago. Then a year ago hired me for a two hour consult. Then after the plumber did his thing asked me to finish up the tile prep. The work by the plumber was horrible and needed to be redone. To achieve this I asked for a 2" drop in the shower zone.
Another builder I worked for called me yesterday for a project on the same street! Awesome. Like this one the builder wants a barrier free shower. An ACO drain. Maybe Steam. We discussed my newest design with light and undermount tubs and he is so excited to try one. I also convinced him to remove the framing for the door that was designed to block the toilet and make it it's own room. Instead I suggested using a showwer glass door but get one frosted. I love this trend in bathroom design.
This home is just getting it's roof on. A perfect time for last minute changes. I worked out the rooms design wit the builder. We called the framer up and told him where to make my drop (2") and where to block off the concrete from the radiant heat pour. This job will be another 8-10 months time span. Most new home builds are.
First things first. Framing changes. Then drain rough in.
I'll get some better pictures tonight. What a battle. I worked on this job for well over a year with the builder. From design to completion.
Here is a look at the latest undermount tub install. The framing for this one was basic. 2"x6" studs with plywood. I raised the height of the perimeter with mortar and waterproofed everything later with Ardex 8+9 and some SK 25 Mesh. The shower's primary waterproofing system is by Noble Company. I used NobleSeal CIS for this and switched out the walls to Ardex 8+9. Capillary break by Schluter. Linear drain (best in class) by ACO. The drain is the tile insert. Still need to increase the flow rate of this for safety.
The design for this bathroom is one some many people are calling me about. The tub is inside the shower. The room is barrier free, yet the shower design is old school. This builder signed up to view my install photos 14 months ago. Then a year ago hired me for a two hour consult. Then after the plumber did his thing asked me to finish up the tile prep. The work by the plumber was horrible and needed to be redone. To achieve this I asked for a 2" drop in the shower zone.
Another builder I worked for called me yesterday for a project on the same street! Awesome. Like this one the builder wants a barrier free shower. An ACO drain. Maybe Steam. We discussed my newest design with light and undermount tubs and he is so excited to try one. I also convinced him to remove the framing for the door that was designed to block the toilet and make it it's own room. Instead I suggested using a showwer glass door but get one frosted. I love this trend in bathroom design.
This home is just getting it's roof on. A perfect time for last minute changes. I worked out the rooms design wit the builder. We called the framer up and told him where to make my drop (2") and where to block off the concrete from the radiant heat pour. This job will be another 8-10 months time span. Most new home builds are.
First things first. Framing changes. Then drain rough in.
The shower will be huge. 36" x 72" roughly. I suggest a bench and a 48" ACO drain.
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Vegas_sparky
Digital Billy
Hope the next one goes as well as this last one(which turned out awesome even with the tub/shower thing going on).
The frosted glass walls around the toilet space will look great. I've seen that a lot in the big resort penthouses here.
The frosted glass walls around the toilet space will look great. I've seen that a lot in the big resort penthouses here.
JohnfrWhipple
BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
I have not done it yet. I keep seeing the design style on Houzz popping up. I really like it and think keeps the bathroom looking bigger. Will see how it turns out.
I was hoping the slab in West Vancouver would be installed by now. Finished the Deck Job last night in Vancouver and now am going back to West Van until completion.
ShowerDude
Showers
Nice design and prep work John....... did you hire the setter or did the builder?
Noble is cracking down on product mixing !
A post and photo from their facebook page .......
One of the 7 Deadly Sins of Waterproofing is the "mixing of waterproofing products". On the surface, that may seem self serving. However, it is important for you to have confidence that the products you choose will perform and work together.
One example we see often is our sheet membrane on the floor with someone else's (often a trowel-applied membrane) on the wall. That may be fine, but we cannot confirm that seams (where another membrane overlaps ours) are watertight. And we cannot confirm that the area waterproofed with another product will be waterproof.
Select products that provide the characteristics you need and use products recommended by the manufacturer to install them. Showers are especially important since waterproofing is absolutely critical. Make sure that any risk is offset by the benefits you get.
As a general rule, mixing products includes more risk than benefits. Furthermore, it is difficult to identify which product caused a failure when more than one are involved.
Noble is cracking down on product mixing !
A post and photo from their facebook page .......
One of the 7 Deadly Sins of Waterproofing is the "mixing of waterproofing products". On the surface, that may seem self serving. However, it is important for you to have confidence that the products you choose will perform and work together.
One example we see often is our sheet membrane on the floor with someone else's (often a trowel-applied membrane) on the wall. That may be fine, but we cannot confirm that seams (where another membrane overlaps ours) are watertight. And we cannot confirm that the area waterproofed with another product will be waterproof.
Select products that provide the characteristics you need and use products recommended by the manufacturer to install them. Showers are especially important since waterproofing is absolutely critical. Make sure that any risk is offset by the benefits you get.
As a general rule, mixing products includes more risk than benefits. Furthermore, it is difficult to identify which product caused a failure when more than one are involved.
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JohnfrWhipple
BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
LOL - where did you find that?
I'm sure Noble would want all my clients and me to use their membrane everywhere. I think NobleSeal CIS or TS is awesome for a steam shower but for me a little overkill for a regular shower. I like using my Ardex 8+9 on the walls.
The overlap in my design is above the floor. My Noble sheets are one piece. Any stress at the floor to wall change of plane is compensated in my design and bond breakers.
I'm not worried about a reinforced (SK 25 Mesh) overlap myself.
Most tile installers I know double down on these over laps.
I'm not aware of any single product failure from any manufacture. Online they do seem to exist. So if a shower fails - what are you going to do? Hire a TCNA or TTMAC swat team and pay thousands of dollars for an inspection or call back the tile guy and builder?
I had a floor heat tile failure happen early this year. It was a total pain in the ass. The substrate was plywood. Then cable heat (Warm Wire), Then Ditra. Then tile. The tile debunked and failed. The floor heat crapped out. My client called the TTMAC and then put a call into the tile supplier who was a TTMAC member. Without coming to the job the fellow said "Installer Error".
My tile guy came back and re-set the entire floor after I ripped an prepped everything for him. Cost me a fortune in time. I'm out of pocket close to $6,000 for the repairs. Since we set the tile with a little heavy with thin-set and mortar mix we did not follow any proper course of action recommended by Schluter. The wire for the heat lasted four years and then stopped working. What do you do?
I suspect that the owners did not use the primary heat source and over worked the cable. But do I sue my client? Ah no. Did I make right? Yes. Did it hurt me? very much so. No vacation this year or next because of this repair.
If you can find one project anywhere where a supplier came and fixed it let me know. That's documented. The tile guy on my West Van job told me about a failed Ditra prep deck job in North Vancouver. He told me Schluter and the builder paid for the fix. How much Schluter paid, or how much the builder paid I do not know. If it's true or not I do not know. I have no reason to think the guy would make that up. For me this is the first example I can find or heard of with a manufacture helping out.
I see some Laticrete Hydro ban Sheet membrane going on there. Is that their bonded flange drain as well? I do not think the membrane is suited to a clamping drain being 8 mil thick. The guy at my West Van job is using a combo of hydro Ban, Kerdi and kerdi Board. I like my approach better.
As to your question about the tile guy on the job picture I posted that is the builders tile setter. Not mine.
I'm sure Noble would want all my clients and me to use their membrane everywhere. I think NobleSeal CIS or TS is awesome for a steam shower but for me a little overkill for a regular shower. I like using my Ardex 8+9 on the walls.
The overlap in my design is above the floor. My Noble sheets are one piece. Any stress at the floor to wall change of plane is compensated in my design and bond breakers.
I'm not worried about a reinforced (SK 25 Mesh) overlap myself.
Most tile installers I know double down on these over laps.
I'm not aware of any single product failure from any manufacture. Online they do seem to exist. So if a shower fails - what are you going to do? Hire a TCNA or TTMAC swat team and pay thousands of dollars for an inspection or call back the tile guy and builder?
I had a floor heat tile failure happen early this year. It was a total pain in the ass. The substrate was plywood. Then cable heat (Warm Wire), Then Ditra. Then tile. The tile debunked and failed. The floor heat crapped out. My client called the TTMAC and then put a call into the tile supplier who was a TTMAC member. Without coming to the job the fellow said "Installer Error".
My tile guy came back and re-set the entire floor after I ripped an prepped everything for him. Cost me a fortune in time. I'm out of pocket close to $6,000 for the repairs. Since we set the tile with a little heavy with thin-set and mortar mix we did not follow any proper course of action recommended by Schluter. The wire for the heat lasted four years and then stopped working. What do you do?
I suspect that the owners did not use the primary heat source and over worked the cable. But do I sue my client? Ah no. Did I make right? Yes. Did it hurt me? very much so. No vacation this year or next because of this repair.
If you can find one project anywhere where a supplier came and fixed it let me know. That's documented. The tile guy on my West Van job told me about a failed Ditra prep deck job in North Vancouver. He told me Schluter and the builder paid for the fix. How much Schluter paid, or how much the builder paid I do not know. If it's true or not I do not know. I have no reason to think the guy would make that up. For me this is the first example I can find or heard of with a manufacture helping out.
I see some Laticrete Hydro ban Sheet membrane going on there. Is that their bonded flange drain as well? I do not think the membrane is suited to a clamping drain being 8 mil thick. The guy at my West Van job is using a combo of hydro Ban, Kerdi and kerdi Board. I like my approach better.
As to your question about the tile guy on the job picture I posted that is the builders tile setter. Not mine.
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ShowerDude
Showers
The picture above is from the noble facebook page as is the TEXT........
here is the link
https://www.facebook.com/TheNobleCompany
here is the link
https://www.facebook.com/TheNobleCompany
JohnfrWhipple
BATHROOM DESIGN & BUILD
Thanks Erik.
I quit Face Book ages ago. I watched this video. It's really well done.
7 Deadly Sins of Waterproofing
Noble Company
I quit Face Book ages ago. I watched this video. It's really well done.
Noble Company
ShowerDude
Showers
yet to find a price/availability on this
attempting to offer a budget membrane perhaps?
http://noblecompany.com/storage/docs/resources/ValueSeal_Product_Description_VS042014-06.pdf
attempting to offer a budget membrane perhaps?
http://noblecompany.com/storage/docs/resources/ValueSeal_Product_Description_VS042014-06.pdf
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