Help with Drake Toilet decision please

[K. Bau]

First post here, but i've been reading for hours! Great forum Terry, there is a wealth of information here.

We had a toilet crack the day before yesterday and I'm looking to replace it ASAP. But I'm a bit confused about selection, the local dealer is even more confused, and Toto is closed until Monday!

Basically I need a 10" rough in toilet. Replacing a builders grade 'western' brand toilet that has flooded half our house due to a crack in the tank. We don't care about universal height (have small kids), would prefer an elongated bowl (but I can't see the dimensions on Toto's site), and would prefer either a dual flush or lower GPF (1.28?). Skirting would be nice, but the Aquia's drawbacks (dirty bowl) would immediately push it out of the running.

I've read here the Drake II has a great flush but it doesn't appear to be available with a 10" rough in according to Toto's website. The only ones available that seem to be available in our price range are the Drake and the Eco Drake, and I can't seem to figure out what the difference is with the GMax, DMax and other acronyms.

Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[Terry]

With TOTO in 10" you have:
Drake CST744EF.10
Drake CST744SF.10
Aquia CST412MF.10
Vespin CST474CEFG with 10" Unifit.

The standard Drake will install at 10-7/8" CST744E or CST744S
The 10" Drake at 9-1/4"
The Drake II at 11.5"
The Vespin at 11.25" or 9.25" with a 10" kit.
The 10" Aquia at 9.5"

What is the measurement from the center of the drain, normally the center of the bolts holding the bowl down, to the wall, not the baseboard?

Any of these bowls will work very well. The Aquia bowl has less water and uses the washdown rinse. It does take a bit more cleaning, but it also has it's fans.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

G-max is 1.6 GPF. It is associated with S after the digits in the part number.

S = G-Max Flush, 1.6 gallons
E = Ecoflush, 1.28 gallons Watersense
U= 1 gallon
F = 16-1/8" high bowl
L = 16-1/2" high bowl
C = Double Cyclone Rinse
D = insulated tank
B = bolt down tank lid, helpful in a commercial situation
R = Right hand lever
G = CEFIONTECT

I suggest going to http://www.totousa.com/products/toilets and select 2-piece and then 10" Rough In in the Installation drop-down.

 

[K. Bau]

Terry and Reach,

Thanks for the quick replies.

Center of bolts to wall is 10.5" - I don't think I can get anything else in there other than a 10" rough in. So it looks like it's the 10" Drake at 9-1/4", the Vespin at 9.25" with a 10" kit, or the 10" Aquia at 9.5".

I've read the Aquia has a hard time adequately rinsing the bowl of 'skids' and can be a pain to install with the needed holes to drill. We have tile in that bathroom, so I think the install and lack of cleaning excludes that one.

Terry, is the Vespin II just a semi skirted Drake II? I noticed it has a double cyclone flush, which I've read good things about. Doesn't seem to be much more expensive than the Drake, and I've read the dual cyclone flush on the Drake II is one of the best.

When I go the drop down it shows both an eco drake and Drake - is the only difference the GPF? There is also a transitional model which looks a bit different.

The only other option I can find is the AS Cadet III, but the reviews seem to be all over the place in regards to quality.

 

[Wallijonn]

You probably can't go wrong with the Drake 10" Rough ins. They are both ADA/Comfort height, though, as is the Vespin. You'll probably want to install a Kohler slim toilet seat instead of a Toto seat that is about 1" high.

http://s2.img-b.com/faucetdirect.com/mediabase/specifications/toto/459674/ss-00448_cst744ef.10.pdf
CST744SF.10.pdf
CST744EFN10.pdf

They all use the same bowl. (Obviously the Vespin uses a different bowl.)

GMAX - 1.60 gpf CST744SF.10
EMAX - 1.28 gpf CST744EF.10

If it's in a home and you have two bathrooms and the Master Bedroom's toilet is the same as the old one, then you could move that one into the Children's bathroom and install the Drake in the Master Bedroom.

AS makes a 15" high 1.28gpf elongated in the Cadet 3,

 

[Terry]

Terry, is the Vespin II just a semi skirted Drake II? I noticed it has a double cyclone flush, which I've read good things about. Doesn't seem to be much more expensive than the Drake, and I've read the dual cyclone flush on the Drake II is one of the best.

The II series is pretty much the same for performance and bowl wash.
CEFIONTECT in the Whites and Double Cyclone
The Vespin II is a skirted version of the Drake II
They Carlyle II is the skirted version Ultramax II which is a one piece version of the Drake II.

 

[K. Bau]

Thanks again for the advice!

The local dealer tells me the Vespin II is available in standard as well as ADA height for the 10" - is that correct? Drake in 10" is only ADA Height? We'd greatly prefer the lower height as this is the bathroom room the kids (young) still use, but it's ultimately not a deal breaker.

 

[Terry]

They quit making the original standard height Vespin bowl years ago. That was the CST764SG combo.

 

[K. Bau]

Thanks Terry. So the only Toto standard height in a 10"" rough in will be the Aquia? If so, ADA height it is!

Eco Drake is just a drake with a 1.28GPF instead of 1.6?

 

[Wallijonn]

Yep.

Me, personally, I see no difference between the 1.28gpf and the 1.60 gpf as far as flush efficiency is concerned. ymmv because of your sewer pipe condition, outside sewer pipe condition, etc. I think the 'best bang for the buck' is the 1.28gpf Drake ADA Elongated. I love my ADA Drake but am 'just okay' with my regular height Drake. I wouldn't be adverse to changing it out, even with an A.S. Cadet 3, whereas the ADA Drake is never being changed. But that's just me; I'm sure others would disagree.

 

[WJcandee]

Your dealer is confusing the Original Vespin (the model number Terry gave) with the Vespin II. Be careful. Very different looking toilet, no CEFIONTECT, no Double Cyclone.

If you get the E version of the Original Drake (CST744), it is available with an optionsl "new style" tank. This is a little boxier and traditional to my eye. The typical Original Drake on 10", CST744EF.10 has the rounder tank. The model number for the toilet you want with the new-look tank (and it's just a new look, they function exactly the same), is CST744EFN.10. So, the CST744EF.10 is made up of the the C744EF.10 bowl with the ST743 tank. For the new-look tank, it's the same C744EF.10 bowl with the CST744 tank. (In bowls, C743___ is gonna be a round Original Drake bowl, and C744___ is going to be an elongated Original Drake bowl. Both bowls used the same ST743 tank, which confused a lot of people, so to add to the confusion, when Toto numbered the "new" "N" tank, they gave it the C744___ number.)

 

[K. Bau]

Much appreciated on the replies - this has been very helpful. Just to double check, are there ANY Toto toilets in a standard (non ADA/Comfort) height and 10" rough in other than the Aquia? I spent some more time reading last night, and the 'bowl cleaning' problems just won't work for my wife. This is the most used bathroom in the house, including for guests, so bowl cleaning issues will be a problem.

That said, we sat on a few of the higher ADA Toto toilets at the showroom, and they are also too high for my wife (her legs dangle). That may be a larger issue than the cleaning.

 

[PyroPete]

Much appreciated on the replies - this has been very helpful. Just to double check, are there ANY Toto toilets in a standard (non ADA/Comfort) height and 10" rough in other than the Aquia? I spent some more time reading last night, and the 'bowl cleaning' problems just won't work for my wife. This is the most used bathroom in the house, including for guests, so bowl cleaning issues will be a problem.

That said, we sat on a few of the higher ADA Toto toilets at the showroom, and they are also too high for my wife (her legs dangle). That may be a larger issue than the cleaning.

I had a similar situation where we needed a 10" rough-in and did not want a tall toilet. I ended up with an American Standard Cadet 3, and have been quite pleased with it. I really wanted another Drake II with the Dual-Cyclone flush (best toilet I've ever had) but that 10" rough-in really limits your Toto choices. No complaints about the AS Cadet 3 though, and it was quite a bit cheaper too.

 

[WJcandee]

Vespin II with a 10" Unifit would have done it -- a Drake II on 10". We are always here if you have questions...

 

[K. Bau]

Thanks again for all the advice - we ended up with a Vespin II in this bathroom and the Ultramax II in our master bathroom. I was a bit nervous about the lower MAP rating of the Ultramax II but it seems that most people are happy with it so we are keeping our fingers crossed.

Unfortunately we have a floor supply that is only 5.5" off center and 2.5" off the wall - which prevents us from installing a skirted toilet. So we will have to get that moved on Monday - but at least we will be able to properly install it and get the toilet we want.

One last question - are there 'better' wax rings and supply hoses? Or are they all about the same grade these days?

Thanks again,

 

[WJcandee]

No no no. This problem comes up all the time with skirted toilets and we have repeatedly suggested the following:

You may not need to MOVE the water supply.

Take a look at this Dahl Skirted Toilet Kit product:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/84155532/SKIRTED-TOTO-TOILET-KIT-SKIRTED-TOTO-TOILET-KIT
(that flyer has been superseded and the product renamed "skirted toilet kit" instead of "skirted toto toilet kit", so that's why I gave you the docstoc version, but it shows what the product does)

Manufacturer's current web page for the product:
http://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/skirted-toilet-kits.php

An article about it:
http://chiefengineer.org/?p=9344

A couple of places to find one:
http://www.faucetdepot.com/prod/Dahl-Mini-Ball-Valves-E33-2386-A-Skirted-Toto-Toilet-Kit-162482.asp

http://www.nyrpcorp.com/dahl-skirted-toilet-valves

There are other places you can get the proper one (design and material) for your installation. Basically, it's a classy, integrated way of simply putting a 90-degree bend on the supply pipe as it comes out of the wall. Dahl mini-ball valves are simple, extremely-well-made, quarter-turn stops. This particular kit adds the 90-degree bend to the high-quality stop valve that you would want anyway.

Any quality brand of wax ring should be fine. You might also enjoy having a look at the Korky wax ring substitute:

http://www.korky.com/?p=Product&i=1201

Available at Lowe's: http://www.lowes.com/pd_586597-868-6000PK_0__?productId=50150240&Ntt=korky&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=korky&facetInfo=

Terry has a brand of braided hose that he likes that he gets from his local plumbing supply place, and used to include in a kit that he would send out anywhere, but I haven't seen that kit in his store recently. You might ask him... But the general answer is that any good quality brand braided hose should be fine.

 

[K. Bau]

Wjcandee,

Thank you for the post - much apprecaited. But my supply is on the floor, not the wall - hence the need to move it. The skirt would land right where the pipe comes out of the floor - I do not believe this would prevent it. Sorry I was not more clear - comes out of the floor at 5.5" off center and 2.5" from wall.

I'd definitely like a kit - and that is much easier to ship than a toilet!

 

[WJcandee]

Ah. Ooops. Sorry. Yeah, you have to move it. You don't need the full 8.5" suggested on the spec sheet, but you do need at least a little more than 5.5".