Need new softener advice

[ScAndal]

I'm new and researching softeners.

I did a drop hardness test yesterday and it measured 32gpg.

Hach test turned from pink to purple. The Hach support said that indicates around 1g/ml of iron.

4 people (2 adults, 2 children)
well water

I was looking at the Fleck 5600sxt and wondering if I should go for the 64k model? Will that be big enough to expand with my 2 kids as they get older?

I've heard about the dangers of oversizing so I want to make sure I don't make a mistake.

 

[Reach4]

You have a typo: it is impossible to have 1 g/ml of dissolved iron water. You probably have 1 mg/l, which is 1 ppm.

http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php says you need a 3.5 cubic foot softener. That would correspond to a "112,000 grain" softener. Different methods might give a slightly different suggestion, but "64,000 grain" would seem to be small for you. Not bad. You would regenerate more often. The main problem with that is the fact that you regen at (typically) 2 AM on days where you don't calculate that you have enough capacity left to make it to 2 AM the next day. So if your softener has 4.8 days of capacity, you would expect to regen every 4 days. Not terrible, but not optimum.

Regarding kids as they get older, I suspect kids use nearly as much water as an adult. Drinking water is insignificant. I don't think they are going to use less water in the shower. Their laundry items may be smaller, but they may get washed more often. I have no data to back this up, so if somebody has actual information, go with that.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[IsopureWater]

I'll have to slightly disagree with the previous post. There are two different ways you can look at sizing a softener. I personally think you should consider getting about an 80,000 grain system. A 64k would be fine as well. Your weekly grain usage is 69000 grains. Most installers like to consider the size of the home and water usage more than the grain capacity - so typically installers like to oversize to compensate for GPM hence 112,000 grain. Sales people like to look at grain usage so in this case they would consider a 80,000 grain system (assuming you consider a 20% reserve capacity).

Either way, you'll be fine. What's important is that you know you have iron. So you'll want to make sure that your "day override" is set at 7. Going too long will cause resin damage because of the iron in the water which is why you've heard that oversizing a softener is bad. Getting too large of a size is just a plain waste because you'll never get to use the full capacity of the softener before it requires regeneration.

Unless you tell me that your home uses 25+ gallons per minute every day that 112,000 grain suggestion is very very outrageously large in my opinion (no offense). I'd take that with a grain of salt. I've been selling softeners for years and I wouldn't recommend that based on what you've said so far. Save your money and go smaller and get a system that will regenerate within a weeks time.

 

[Reach4]

Unless you tell me that your home uses 25+ gallons per minute every day that 112,000 grain suggestion is very very outrageously large in my opinion (no offense). I'd take that with a grain of salt.

How much salt per cubic foot would you regenerate with?

At 6 pounds of salt per cubic foot, a "96,000" 3 cubic ft of resin would give 60,000 grains of capacity. A " 64,000" 2 cubic feet would have 40,000 grain capacity.

Another difference is how much water use per person to expect. Gary's calculator defaults to 60 gallons per person per day. ScAndle could plug in his own numbers too. How many gallons of use would you expect for an adult and how much for a child? That number could be less with 1 GPF flush toilets and low flow showerheads.

You make some good points. I think 3 cubic feet would be a good number, but 2 cubic feet would still be reasonable. I wonder how many people ever replace their resin. It seems odd to me that 2.5 cubic feet of replacement resin costs more per cubic ft than 2 cubic feet costs per cuft.

 

[ScAndal]

Thank you so much for the fantastic replies.

My current daily water usage is around 120-150g. I know this will go up as the kids get older.

I think I'll go with an 80k system. Would you suggest any special treatment for the iron?

Thus far we have been fine using rust removal salt in our current system.

I'm leaning towards just adding a sediment filter before the softener.

 

[Reach4]

When choosing a sediment filter, remember to get a polypropylene filter element rather than cellulose for non-chlorinated water.

I like the Pentek Big Blue 20*4.5 housings. The filter size is generic, and there are many reasonably priced elements. If you have significant sediment amounts, then a different type of filter might be useful.

Also you might read about fine grain resin. It is said to be better for iron.

 

[ScAndal]

Thanks Reach! Would it make most sense to order 1" or 3/4" connectors? Currently I have 1" copper pipes and the existing water softener has 1" -> 3/4" reducer adapters. Should I cut those off and just run 1" to 1"?

 

[Reach4]

1" to 1" would be better I think. I used 3/4, which matched pipes. I suggest mounting a pressure gauge after the filter. It will help you monitor the filter backpressure. You could also consider plumbing in a filter bypass. Or at least keep an extra O-ring. Use silicone grease on O-ring each time.

Note that the Big Blue expects you to use 5/16" x 1" lag bolts to mount the housing to the bracket. I did not know that, and tapped threads in. That works too.

I put in 3 housings. That was overkill, especially since my filters follow my iron+sulfur backwashing filter. I leave the first housing empty. (even an empty housing will catch bigger stuff) I figured overkill was not so bad. You might consider two... the first with maybe a 50 micron filter, and a finer one next. You could also consider one housing with dual gradient filter such as the Pentek PENTEK-DGD-5005-20... I use one those followed by a wound 1 micron. Again, overkill. After 13 months the first filter looked nearly new, and the second one looked new. But then I have that backwashing filter first.

 

[ditttohead]

Iron in the water should be treated with iron removal systems and not a softener. The efficiency of a softener used for iron removal is not acceptable and leads to excessive salt usage. The technology to remove iron is simple and effective. A softener used for iron removal will require regular re-bedding or, chemical cleaning, high salting, and frequent regenerations. This additional salt load into the septic or ground water supplies is unnecessary and easily avoided. A single ppm of iron uses the same softener capacity as 85 ppm of hardness (CaCo3).

Pre-filtration ahead of the softener is usually not needed If an iron removal system is used. The iron removal system will remove most sediment from the water.

The 5600 series should not be used on softener tanks larger than 12"

 

[ScAndal]

Thanks again everyone for the responses. I finally got my lab results and they are a bit different than my original self measure.

My hardness is lower than initially expected. After plugging my numbers into the calculator (image attached), it looks like closer to 64k now vs 80k

So with a .81 ppm iron result, what would be the advice for iron fitlers?

 

[Reach4]

Did you notice that that calculator page is saying you need a 3 cuft softener? That is a "96,000 grain" softener. However you may be OK with a 2 cuft. You may have low flow toilets, and may be using less than 60 GPD per person. If you do use 60 each, then with 2 cuft you might regen every 4 or 5 days.

At 25 ppm sulfate, I would think you would have some sulfur smell. If not, great. If so, I would do a good well and system sanitizing including "flooding volume". You might consider a powered water heater anode. Others would suggest just removing your anode, but I would not. If you are finding the sulfur smell pretty bothersome, that would suggest that maybe a separate backwashing filter would be a good idea. That would go before the softener and maybe a Big Blue housing.

After your filters are in place, I would flush your water heater to remove existing stuff.

There are backwashing filters that will remove the sulfur and iron (which would lower your compensated hardness some). You may not need that. Fine mesh resin, turbulator, SST-60 are all options that each say they will help with dealing with iron.

Nice pH.

 

[_John_]

I personally would want a backwashing filter ahead of the softener, probably with Katalox just because it's so much less to deal with than cartridge filters (assuming a drain isn't an issue).

Easy for me to say though, as I'd pay our company's cost (still a significant investment) on those.

 

[Reach4]

I personally would want a backwashing filter ahead of the softener, probably with Katalox just because it's so much less to deal with than cartridge filters (assuming a drain isn't an issue).

Tell us more. Would there be air injection during recharge or what?

 

[ditttohead]

With that low of iron, the Katalox Light system will reduce his sediment and iron. I doubt air injection or chlorine injection would be necessary at levels that low. The Katalox light media filters down to 3-5 microns so no cartridges are needed.

 

[_John_]

Tell us more. Would there be air injection during recharge or what?

I've done several installations (all on well systems that have adequate oxygen in their water) up to about 3 ppm iron with nothing but a backwash needed.

Backwashing filters are just so great for being maintenance free, and considering iron in the water it adds the benefit of iron/sulfur (if ever needed) removal that a cartridge filter won't do. (Also his Mn is a bit high; again, easily removed with the same Katalox media I'm suggesting).

I just like the added value it would give to the overall water quality.

 

[Reach4]

I've done several installations (all on well systems that have adequate oxygen in their water) up to about 3 ppm iron with nothing but a backwash needed.

My backwashing filter uses Centaur Carbon. It works nicely for me for sulfur and iron. It backwashes with a bleach solution every 3 days. I have seen systems offered recently with no chemical for the backwash. Maybe they are Katalox light. Maybe they are Ferrilite.

 

[ditttohead]

Dissolved oxygen and ORP testing can tell you if the iron reduction systems will need further oxidizer injection. I have several customers using Katalox Light with 5-10 ppm iron, no chemical injection with great success. The only real failure we have seen was a 2 Cu. Ft. 7000 with Katalox Light that was being used for 2 houses with 5 ppm H2s, and some iron. The system got unplugged for a couple months and when they backwashed it, it was like sewage water coming out... a little bleach in the tank for an hour and it is like new again.

 

[Reach4]

Dissolved oxygen and ORP testing can tell you if the iron reduction systems will need further oxidizer injection. I have several customers using Katalox Light with 5-10 ppm iron, no chemical injection with great success. The only real failure we have seen was a 2 Cu. Ft. 7000 with Katalox Light that was being used for 2 houses with 5 ppm H2s, and some iron. The system got unplugged for a couple months and when they backwashed it, it was like sewage water coming out... a little bleach in the tank for an hour and it is like new again.

What I don't understand is how a media getting backwashed with just water causes it to release the accumulated iron and sulfur. Water flowing through the media during operation deposits iron and sulfur, but water flowing during backwash removes iron and sulfur. "How does it know?" -- as in the old Thermos bottle joke.

 

[_John_]

in the case of a surface with MnO2 iron, sulfur and manganese are oxidized then deposited by physical disposition on the media, so when you backwash, those deposits are lighter than the media, so much is flushed out at backwash. The new added oxidation products or just the raw water will just flow upward through the fluidized bed during a backwash as there is no bed to be trapped on.

On carbon though, it is just sediment that is backwashed. Destroyed adsorption sites from chlorine or occupied sites by things like organic chemicals will stay in the adsorption sites during water flow. It's why over time carbon can become less effective/efficient and ultimately be "spent".

 

[ditttohead]

Well stated, iron in the ferrous (clear water) form is converted to the ferric (rust) state and the media also prevents it from migrating through by physical filtration. Katalox Light is based on Clinoptilolite which has an ability to filter down to the 3-5 micron range. This is tated in laymen terms of couse, but between John's and my explanation, it should make sense.

Also, and converted iron that happens during backwash is flushed down the drain during the fast rinse cycle, and it is the reason we use treated water backwashing especially when the feed source is particularly bad.