Lining steel well casing

[Jack Hammett]

We have a 420 foot deep well, cased to 71 feet with 6" steel casing drilled in 1980. Pump is set at 400 feet on 1" black poly pipe. The casing above the water level looks pretty much OK, but we are getting rust particles in our water filter. It has plugged the 1/4" nipple to the pressure switch twice now in the last 2 months. All of the line to the house is poly well pipe.

Pump quit and have pulled pump to replace. Thinking to remove pitless and reline the steel casing to a depth of 71 feet with 4 1/2" PVC casing with a well packer at the bottom at 71 feet.

Will this be a problem when I have to pull the pump next time it fails? I am afraid pump could hang on end of PVC casing liner at 71 feet.

 

[LLigetfa]

It seems somewhat drastic to fix such a small problem that happened twice in 35 years. I know most here will say not to put a filter between the pump and the tank, but I have a 100 mesh Banjo filter inline that catches anything coarse. In my case it is required because I have a micronizer inline that could otherwise plug up.

If you put a filter inline, you need to also have a PRV in case it plugs and deadheads the pump.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Boycedrilling]

When you say black well pipe, what do you mean? Black iron pipe? Black poly pipe? If it's black iron pipe opposed to galvanized pipe that's your problem. But if it's black poly pipe, the problem is else where. It not very often that steel casing is the problem. It doesn't have water flow thru it. the rust problem is more likely to be inside of your plumbing somewhere.

 

[Jack Hammett]

The pump is hanging on 1" poly pipe. The nipple and pressure switch have plugged up twice in the last two months. The filter in the line under the house plugs up every month or two and causes pressure in house to drop. All of the underground pipe to the house is 1" poly. We have no brown staining or odor in the water. Someone suggested it could be iron plugging the 1/4" nipple and pressure switch and shock chlorinating the well might fix it. The well has not been treated with chlorine ever to my knowledge, certainly not in the last 10 years that we lived here after my Aunt died.

 

[Reach4]

The pump is hanging on 1" poly pipe. The nipple and pressure switch have plugged up twice in the last two months. The filter in the line under the house plugs up every month or two and causes pressure in house to drop. All of the underground pipe to the house is 1" poly. We have no brown staining or odor in the water. Someone suggested it could be iron plugging the 1/4" nipple and pressure switch and shock chlorinating the well might fix it. The well has not been treated with chlorine ever to my knowledge, certainly not in the last 10 years that we lived here after my Aunt died.

You don't have rust-red staining in the toilet tanks? That is surprising. When your filter plugs, and when your pressure switch plugs, what color is the material? I presume that your filter is a cartridge filter. How large are the cartridges? It is possible that your well is filling with some kind of sediment, and maybe you could get that cleaned out. Some providers will use a high-capacity compressor to blow air down a pipe to the bottom of the casing (while the submersible pump is pulled out) to drive debris up in and impressive geyser.

If you do sanitize the well, I suggest this procedure: http://www.moravecwaterwells.com/disin_test.htm
It is more complicated than most procedures.

 

[Jack Hammett]

We don't have rust-red stains. We have mild green staining of fixtures, I assume from slightly acidic water. I have replaced 80% of the in house copper plumbing with pex to try to eliminate the green staining. What plugs the filter and what plugged the pressure switch appears to be rust particles.
Since I don't have rust- red stains, maybe I shouldn't bleach the well. It seems that would rust the steel casing more.

 

[Jack Hammett]

My real pressing question at this point is whether I should just replace the pump or try to re case just the 71 feet of steel well casing first. I can't really properly sanitize (bleach) the well and casing until I get a pump set back in. I think trying to re case the well the full 400 feet (with some number of screens) is out of the question.

Can I get the pump back out later if I stop the 4 1/2" casing at 71 feet? I have dug down to the pitless adapter outside of the casing so I can remove it to pass the well packer and new PVC casing.

 

[Craigpump]

Been there, done that.

Actually, someone else did the very same thing and I was lucky enough to get the pump out....

IF you case the well with 4" PVC, you will want to hang the pump on sch 80.

Now here's why, poly pipe no matter how long it's been in the hole retains its memory and has a curl in it. Once that pump goes below the the liner, there is nothing to prevent the pipe from curling, therefore the pump will be tough to get back into the liner.

With sch 80, you can pull the pump to the bottom of the liner and then twist it to allow the pump to come up into the liner.

An alternative is to have a well contractor come in with a brush and brush the scale loose then use air lift to get the scale out of the well.

 

[Jack Hammett]

The inside of the steel casing above the water line looks pretty good, no flakes coming off or anything. Some one from a well company came out and told me the well casing would be rusted worse above the water line than below and that my well casing must be fine. Does that fit with your experience? Our water here in Virginia is somewhat acidic and I would think the rust would be worse below the water. They told me to shock treat it with bleach for iron. I think they were unable to line it or didn't want to line it or wanted to drill me a new well later or something. I sure don't know which way to go with this. What is the normal life span of a steel well casing if you don't re-line it? This one is 34 years old and the rust problem in the water seems to be slowly getting worse in the 10 years we have lived here.

 

[Craigpump]

Have one of the local guys run a camera down the well and see what it looks like.

 

[Jack Hammett]

I can try, but I waited 5 weeks for the only company who will work on this deep well to come out and their men are the ones who came out 2 days ago and said casing is fine because of the way the part above the water line looks. We are getting into freeze season and I have the water lines dug up in an open ditch. Can't cover them till I make the call whether or not to pull out the pitless and try to line the well. I guess I am low priority for them as I pulled the pump myself and have a shallow well to run the farm off while trying to rejuvenate this deep well. I guess they know they won't make any money off me unless I need a new well. I hope that isn't affecting their advice, but I don't know.
My problem is I don't have any experience to know if casings typically show rust above the water if they are deteriorating or not and whether a 34 year old steel casing is going to fail if I don't do something now while I have it dug up.

 

[Craigpump]

We do see casing rusting on the inside, usually it's in large flakes. Rarely do we see casing rotted through from the inside but it has been known to happen. That's why a down hole camera is good to have, you know what you're dealing with.

I think a better way to go, and certainly less expensive is to put a shroud over the pump. Basically you get a 5' long piece of 4" sch 40 and a 4" abs well seal. Take the pump off the pipe, slide the seal on, put the pump back on the pipe, slide the PVC to the seal, tighten the nuts and put it back in the well.

 

[Reach4]

Not a pro... These are only ideas with no practical experience to back them:

If you blow the water out of the above ground pipes, they could go through the winter. I understand that a quicker solution is much better.

Can you see rust in a glass of water that you pull from an outside hose tap (which would normally bypass any filter)? If so, how long does it take to settle out. If it settles out in a minute, there are separators that might be useful. The Lycos Twist 2 Clean could also be something to consider, but it may be smaller than you need. See http://www.twistiiclean.com/ for descriptions of several products.

There are ways to clean wells, which I know you have searched on. The one where you blow air from a 5HP or better compressor may not work due to the depth of the well. Actually I am thinking it would have more to do with the depth to water. I also don't know if the air lift pump methods work. There is a method to use a "bailer bucket" that brings sediment from the bottom of the well. It would be tedious, but it might work for you.

I am surprised that LLigetfa suggested a filter before the pressure switch. It seems to me that a filter with a pressure bypass would be OK. The device would be normally closed, and it would pass water once there was maybe a 20 PSI drop across the filter. This is often done in cars for oil. I don't have a pressure bypass to point you to. Another idea that I have is to put an additional pressure switch in place that would be before the new filter. This would be set to shut down if the pressure got to 80 PSI or more. It would be wired in series with the current pressure switch. You would add gauge with a tattletale before the filter. That remembers the highest pressure it has seen since reset. That could serve to give warning that you are getting close to needing a media change.

Suppose you had a filter bypassed by a CSV that is set to a very low pressure, such as 20 or 30 PSI. A CSV is like a bypass valve that opens at a particular settable pressure, but it is built to provide some flow all of the time. In its normal use, it keeps the pressure tank from reaching cutoff pressure for maybe a minute or so. If you did not find a normal pressure relieve valve to bypass the pre-switch filter, then maybe a CSV could at least send most of the flow through the filter except in clogged conditions.

How big is your current filter? If it is 2.5 x 10, I would replace it with a 4.5 x 20 Pentek Big Blue. If it is a 4.5x20, I would put in a backwashing filter with media such as sand, or perhaps other media that can do some needed treatment at the same time that it is doing mechanical filtering.

I see Lakos Sandmaster is intended for use http://www.lakos.com/gwi-products/sandmaster-smp before the pressure switch. If your rust settles out, that might fit the need even though the intended use was to separate out sand. "These NSF certified residential separators can remove unwanted solids that can settle in 3 minutes or less, extending life of water treatment systems."


And finally an easier potential help. Run the water full blast out of the hose bibs for maybe 24 hours or more. If there is any chance that you would run out of water, you should have a pump protection device that shuts down the pump if you run out of water.

Wilder idea: Suppose you pumped from greater and greater depths. Then you raise your pump by 20 feet, and let the sediment accumulate for the next 20 years. I don't know how that would work out. Probably the most wild of these ideas.

 

[LLigetfa]

I am surprised that LLigetfa suggested a filter before the pressure switch.

I don't know why you are surprised and perhaps you did not read my explanation as to why I have one. It is a 100 mesh coarse filter that is not prone to plugging up and I do monitor it and flush it regularly. It catches a little bit of sand, maybe a teaspoon whenever I flush it. Once every decade or so, I pull my pump and bail out the sand buildup.

Despite the amount of dissolved iron in my water and the fact I use a micronizer that takes it out of solution, I have never had a problem with a plugged riser to the pressure switch. I have had to replace my pressure switch though due to mineral encrustation under the diaphragm. I have considered piping the pressure switch to the top of the HP tank so that it only sees air but then I'd be fixing a problem that doesn't manifest often enough to make it worthwhile.

 

[Reach4]

I don't know why you are surprised and perhaps you did not read my explanation as to why I have one.

I had misinterpreted post #16 on https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/bouncing-pressure-switch.59285/#post-439076

It is clear why some people would want a filter. It is often stated by people as a generality to never put a filter between the pump and the pressure switch.

 

[Jack Hammett]

OK, I'll go with a shroud. Thank you for sharing your experience. What is the usual life span of a steel casing in the absence of big flakes of rust inside? Could I see another 30 years of service life?

 

[LLigetfa]

I had misinterpreted post #16 on https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/bouncing-pressure-switch.59285/#post-439076

It is clear why some people would want a filter. It is often stated by people as a generality to never put a filter between the pump and the pressure switch.

Which of course I also stated but in the other thread you linked, I said "you cannot put any kind of filter between the pump and the bladder tank if the sense line is on the pump" which is different entirely. If the sense line is after the filter, it will not cause a problem unless the filter clogs and reduces cooling flow to the pump or completely deadheads the pump. A PRV may prevent that so long as the pump is not too far off the curve.

 

[Craigpump]

I wouldn't put a filter between the pump and pressure switch, mainly because most people wouldn't service the damn thing! But if I did, there would be pressure gauges on both sides along with a pressure relief valve piped to the owners EZ Chair.....lol

 

[LLigetfa]

Understood Craig, homeowners lie through their teeth. They will swear up and down that it will get regular maintenance and when it goes wrong because of lack of maintenance they will blame you.

What do you do in a case like mine where the manufacturer specifies that a filter is needed to prevent the micronizer from getting clogged? The micronizer has a much greater likelihood of getting clogged than my 100 mesh Banjo filter.

 

[Craigpump]

We routinely work on wells 40 + yrs old, last month we worked on one that was drilled in 1942, the casing was damn near perfect! Bear in mind that steel isn't what it used to be and water quality can impact steel over the long run.

Experience in the field wins out over whats read in a book, online or cut n paste