Want a hotter shower, trying to narrow down the solution

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sstackho

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Hello to you very knowledgeable folks.

I am looking to get a hotter shower, and trying to identify what would be the best method of attack for trying to fix it. I am unknowledgable about these things, but I want to learn.

Situation:
- 3-storey house
- 50L traditional tank in the basement, looks to be 12 years old. Set at a high setting.
- anti-scald mixing valve installed at tank about 6 years ago. I am unable to adjust its setting as it appears to have seized.

3rd floor shower is the one that we use the most, and we find it lukewarm most of the time. It feels like the temperature can be inconsistent from day-to-day and time-to-time.

I got out a probe thermometer used for cooking (not sure how accurate it is) and did some temperature tests and recorded the maximum temperatures:

3rd floor shower 101F (I think it has a thermostatic mixing valve, not sure)
3rd floor sink 108F (two separate handles for hot and cold)
2nd floor tub 102F (one handle, not sure what's inside)
1st floor kitchen 109F (one handle)
Basement sink 113F (one handle)
Basement shower 104F (one handle)

My understand (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that the mixing valve at the tank should be providing hot water at around 120F.

Questions:

Is it typical for single-handle sinks to provide hotter water than single-handle showers? Do single-handle sink typically have anti-scald features like (I think) most showers do?

I am trying to figure out why all of the showers seem to be below (what I am guessing is) an optimal temperature of 110-115F.

I read that most newer shower fixtures can adjust based on actual water temperature, whereas older fixtures may need adjusting if the actual water temperature changes. I don't know what kinds I have. My 3rd flower shower is <5 years old, so I figure it's of the newer type.

I figure I have three areas I could target:
- the shower fixtures / cartridges
- the mixing valve at the tank
- the tank itself

Any suggestions on how to narrow the options down? I recall a plumber trying to check temperatures coming out of the tank and out of the mixing valve, but I'm not quite sure how they did that or what tools one would need.

Sorry for the length of this message. Thanks for reading!
 

Reach4

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You could run full hot to the bathroom area, and put a mixing valve there. That will give you a little hotter temperature at the shower, since you will compensate for the heat loss from the piping from the HWH to the bathroom. Figure to have more than one mixing valve in your house if you choose that.
 

Terry

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The problem is your shower valve adjustment.

I too think that you should be looking at the tub / shower valves. Pull the handles and see if there is a limiter that prevents the handle from turning all the way to hot. A lot of valves come with the limiter assuming you working with 140 or hotter water supply.
Since you have dialed down to 120 or less, the limiter needs to be moved.
 

LLigetfa

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Candles are too feminine for me and the spray from the shower head would likely put out the fire.

Replace the seized tempering valve at the HWT. Adjust the limiter on the shower valve.
 

sstackho

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Thanks all.

I figured out how to remove the handles (took me a while - I told you I'm new at this!) and was able to adjust the cartridge, but with no improvement in temperature.

The 3rd floor fixture is a Riobel (small Canadian brand, seen some slagging it on here). The shower/tub faucets on the other floors with similar temperatures are not Riobel.

I had a plumber suggest perhaps to remove the anti-scald mixing valve at the tank. I think that would be against code though (I'm in Ontario). Not sure how important that is IF each of our shower fixtures has anti-scald built in - and I'm not sure about that. I do have children aged 5-10 in the house.

Since each of the showers has similar temperature, my guess is that the mixing valve at the tank could be to blame. But I trust your opinions more than mine!

EDIT: Not sure if this is relevant, but if I turn off the hot water supply and turn on the 3rd floor shower at fully hot, a solid medium stream of cold water still comes out. Turning the temperature handle doesn't affect the cold water flow except when it is turned to very cold. I'm not sure if this is a fair test as it is perhaps trying to balance the temperature without any hot water present.
 
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LLigetfa

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Not sure if this is relevant, but if I turn off the hot water supply and turn on the 3rd floor shower at fully hot, a solid medium stream of cold water still comes out. Turning the temperature handle doesn't affect the cold water flow except when it is turned to very cold. I'm not sure if this is a fair test as it is perhaps trying to balance the temperature without any hot water present.
The way a single lever works is it starts by opening the cold more and more until it is full open. Then it starts to open the hot more and more until it is either full open or up against the upper limit setting.

Scalding is a risk at all the faucets, not just the shower. Many sink faucets don't have anti-scald features.
 

sstackho

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I thought I'd follow up on this thread. Based on the subpar temperatures throughout the house, I decided that either the tempering valve or the hot water tank was to blame. I read that tempering valves may only last for ~5 years, and we were around that point.

The tank was old, so I decided to replace the tank. I got a few recommendations to get rid of the tempering valve, so I did. I know that this is a risk with children in the house, but we have and will continue to warn them about the risks.

Got the tank installed last week, lost the tempering valve and now all is well. Hot showers are a beautiful thing!

I really appreciate the help on this forum, so thanks very much!
 

Jadnashua

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Where I live, a tempering valve is required at the WH to pass an inspection. Running the WH above 120-degrees can make the tank 'look' like it's bigger, and might be your preferred temp to ensure it is more sanitary (things don't tend to grow when it is hotter in it).

At least in the USA, all new, code-approved shower valves are required to have anti-scald technology, but that only works by preventing a hot burst caused by a temp0rary loss of cold, leaving only (or mostly) hot water coming out. Whether that will happen or not depends on how well the plumbing is sized and laid out (think flushing the toilet - on some, it can use a loss of cold, making your shower momentarily quite hot).
 

sstackho

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Boo! After a month of blissfully warm showers after we changed the water heater and deleted the mixing valve at the tank, the past few days have required a noticeable change as to where the shower temperature lever needs to get it to the preferred shower temperature.

I ran some temperatures, and I can get around 140F at the sink but only around 100F at the shower. I assume that the temperature cartridge in the thermostatic shower valve needs maintenance or replacing.

What is interesting is that the basement shower is also only getting 100F or so. (The old-school second floor bath is a scalding 140F - no tempering there!)

Do these temperature-controlling shower heads have a typical lifespan before they need maintenance or replacing? They are around 4-6 years old, and from different manufacturers.
 

LLigetfa

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I am guessing where you can get 140 that is using only hot with no cold blended in. Most showers are not temperature limiting per se, only flow limiting and pressure balanced. They generally have an upper limit setting that controls how far open the hot side will go and when they do go over to the hot side, they most likely do not cut off the cold that is mixed in. They have no parts that would change the upper limit due to wear.

Have you looked for and adjusted the upper limit? Have you confirmed if they are truly temperature limiting?
 

LLigetfa

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Also, the recent change may be due to thermal loss in the pipe run from colder outside temperatures. Many people complain that their dishwashers don't clean as well in Winter and that is due to lower water temperature.
 

MichaelBukay

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Perhaps there is a crossed line somewhere? Or a broken faucet or shower valve mixer that is bridging the hot and cold? I had a customer who crossed a line himself, and the problems for some reason didn't start for months.
 

Reach4

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Boo! After a month of blissfully warm showers after we changed the water heater and deleted the mixing valve at the tank, the past few days have required a noticeable change as to where the shower temperature lever needs to get it to the preferred shower temperature.

http://www.riobel.ca/accueil/contenu/faq says
  • The running water is not hot enough, can I adjust this?
Yes, the temperature can be adjusted. In order to do so, remove the water temperature handle and test the water temperature through one of the water outlets (shower head, spout, etc). Turn the cartridge counter-clockwise for more hot water, and clockwise for more cold water. Once the desired temperature has been reached, reposition the handle.
http://www.peerlessfaucet.com/customer-support/faq/Water+Temperature/index.html is for Peerless.
 

LLigetfa

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The newer piston style pressure balance spools are less likely to cause a crossover than the older diaphragm style. The old diaphragm style can blend cold and hot to other faucets whereas the small piston style is likely to only affect the shower it is serving.
 

sstackho

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Thanks. I had already done the minor adjustment as described two posts above. It didn't seem to make any difference. I was surprised as to the volume of cold water coming through the fixture when I shut off the hot water supply and turn the temperature to fully hot.

The (poor) Riobel instructions which I think apply to my fixture describe to go a further step, which I have not done:

Inspect the temperature cartridge. According to the condition of the temperature cartridge, clean it or replace it.

I don't know what I'd be looking for. So I think I will need a plumber at this point.

What confuses me is that the basement shower is at a similar temperature - and that's not a Riobel.

BTW, no concerns about external temperature, because the hot water temp of the sink beside the shower (same water line) is 140F.
 

Jadnashua

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A thermostatically controlled shower valve can fail, and depending on the design, they often fail producing a cooler output. They can also get out of calibration, but if it changes much after installation, it's probably worn out. A pressure balanced system will normally have that limit stop that can prevent you from turning the control to 'too' hot. Depending on the temperature of your cold water, if you want to be totally correct, you'd adjust it for upper limit in the winter, then also adjust it again in the late spring/summer again. Most people don't and opt for it being too hot in the summer and okay for the winter.

A cross-over somewhere can limit your ability to get hot water. Keep in mind, that in the last month or so, the incoming cold water may now be 10-20 degrees colder than earlier, affecting the max temp you can achieve.

Some valves have in-line filters, and if the hot water line has any crud buildup, that could limit flow, and keep it cooler. This can sometimes become an issue if the water was turned off for maintenance. The inrush of water when it is turned back on can dislodge crud caked on the insides of the pipes and give you that kind of problem.
 

sstackho

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I have a second resolution for my hot water issues - and hopefully the last needed for a while!

I decided to give Riobel a call, and I'm very glad that I did. I dealt with a very helpful technical support agent. She asked me to e-mail pictures of my fixtures and she determined the specific model type and sent me the installation instructions. I had difficulty removing the temperature cartridge and she walked me through the process. Her advice to turn the water back on so that the water pressure would help eject the cartridge worked perfectly. She mailed me a replacement temperature cartridge free of charge, and I am to mail back my old cartridge.

I installed the replacement cartridge and all is well again.

I was very impressed with Riobel's customer service.

And I'm moderately impressed at myself that I did all this on my own without calling a plumber, as I'm not exactly the handiest guy in the world. It's not hard once you know what to do. It's the knowing what to do that is my challenge.

Thanks again to your help on this forum.
 
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