Air in lines...why?

[The Amazing Dam]

Built my house 08-09.
Existing well and pump, assumed last used before '92.
Before building, had prominent local well guy out to test it. Ran and was chloroform free, so we used it.
He estimates it probably 160' deep. It has sanitary cap.
I installed a WellXTrol WX 203 (~32 gal). DOM 03/09.
Installed GE 4x10 house filter and use 25-30 micron carbon filter. No conditioning equipment.

After I change my filter I get air in my lines, but that is not a problem. It eventually goes away. (I mentioned this as a matter of reference to help describe what my problem is).

Here is my problem. Recently when I open a tap, I get that same "air in the lines" pulsation for short period of time and then it goes away. It is very prevalent in a toilet tank fill, Because that is a short duration open "tap".

I suspected that I might have a problem with either my pump or my well, so I connected a hose at the upstream side of the tank tee and ran the water. The water flowed with pressure and uninterrupted for the half hour that I did that.

I definitely have a problem, but do not know where to continue my troubleshooting.

 

[Craigpump]

You're always going to air get after changing the filter.

It sounds as though the check valve in the pump is failing. When the pump shuts off, the water level in the drop pipe drops and pulls in air that gets moved into the tank when the pump comes on.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I installed a WellXTrol WX 203 (~32 gal). DOM 03/09.

What kind of tank was there before you put in the WX203?

 

[The Amazing Dam]

Craig-pump:
I understand the air after changing cartridge. I referenced that as an example. Also I have a check valve at the top of the sanitary cap and one just before tank tee.

Reach:
I built on a property that had a house burn in about '92. I built my house in 08/09. That is my original well tank.

 

[The Amazing Dam]

Craig:
I reread your post.
If the pump is submerged, where could the air be entering?

 

[Reach4]

Was there the remnants of a tank from before the fire? The reason that I ask is there is a type of pressure tank that has no bladder, diaphragm, or schrader valve. Instead it has a valve to expel excess air. Those often relied on a system to inject air by intentionally admitting air to the downpipe to force air into the pressure tank each time the submersible pump starts. If you had that type of system on your downpipe, that could explain where air comes from. It is not the only potential explanation.

See post #3 of https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/how-does-the-air-get-in-non-bladder-tanks.259/

 

[Craigpump]

The vacuum when the water level drops pulls the air in

 

[LLigetfa]

You have too many checkvalves. Remove the one at the tank and the one at the wellhead. The only checkvalve should be at the pump. If after removing the checkvalves, you lose water flowing backwards, then you probably have a leak that was being masked by the extra checkvalves.

 

[The Amazing Dam]

Reach:
I seem to recollect a steel tank from the burned out foundation. BUT I cut off the plumbing inside my well pit. I started fresh at the well cap and built 150' in the opposite direction (uphill).

Lligetfa
I'm willing to eliminate check valves first as Lligetfa suggests (least intrusive method right now).

But, after working fine for 5+ years, do the extra check valves have a bearing on the system?

New information: I had changed my cartridge last weekend and looking at it today, I would say it's ready again. (Normally changed every 4 months).

[This info leads me (a non-professional) to believe that the cause of the rust accumulating so quickly on the filter cold be by the (now new) condition of the water flowing in 2 directions.
(Sadly, I suspect that there is about 8-20' pieces of pipe attached to that well cap.)]

 

[LLigetfa]

Checkvalves hold best when they have pressure against them and with a string of them, only the one closest to the tank sees the pressure. When the valve at the pump doesn't hold because of the lack of pressure, the weight of the vertical water column draws a partial vacuum on the line. If there is even the slightest leak in the line, the vacuum will draw in air. If the leak is underground, it can draw in contaminated surface ground water. When the pump starts, it sends that plug of air or contamination to the tank.

Even if there was no leak in the line, the vacuum will cause a slug of water to rush in the line and slam against the next checkvalve causing water hammer. The water hammer can damage the line and eventually the checkvalve. The next checkvalve in line will then eventually succumb.

 

[The Amazing Dam]

Lligetfa::
Your explanation makes sense to me.
Because I only know for sure what equipment I have from the sanitary cap into the house, I'd like to be sure about something:
The check valve that you say is in the well, should it be very soon after the pump (and basically between the pump and the pipe that delivers the water up to the surface)
--OR--
Is it an integral part of the pump?

(Right now, I'm thinking that if I have to pull the pump to fix the check valve that I'd replace the pump, the wiring, the metal pipe and the check valve too).

 

[The Amazing Dam]

Image inside well pit.
1"Elbow- 1x 3/4 reducer -nipple -check valve -well pipe adapter -well pipe.

2 unknown vertical pipes in the well pit to the left. They were obviously from the previous owner but that is how they were when I bought the property. The only thing that was hooked up was a pipe going towards the right starting on the top of the cap.

 

[Craigpump]

Someone put that top check valve in as a bandaid rather than pulling the pump and doing it right.

Sometimes the check valve is part of the pump like in a Grundfos, other brands like old Goulds used a separate check valve on top of the discharge.

If the pump isn't too old, you can put a new check valve on top of the old pump and it will just fine. But if the pump is over 7-8 yrs old, I'd change it and the wire too along with a new well seal.

When you pull that seal, don't take the bolts out, just loosen them. Taking the bolts out will drop the lower plates and stick the pump in the well.

 

[Reach4]

When/if you pull your pump, you will want to get rid of the bleeder orifice if present on the down pipe, which I suspect there is.

There is another potential issue here. I think your well cap is in a pit. If that pit gets water in it, there can be contamination of the well if the well cap leaks-- and there is a good chance that the well cap will leak. I had my well cap removed, a casing extension welded on to bring the casing above ground, and a pitless adapter installed below the frost line. Baring that, consider putting in a sump pump in the pit to keep water from rising up to the well cap. The casing extension is the right way.

 

[The Amazing Dam]

That pit doesn't take on water and it hasn't in the eight years that I've owned the property but there's a lot of value in what you say there In raising that casing.
(I just came from the plumbing supply house and there was another guy at the counter wanting to raise his casing too. Kind of ironic.they were selling him on a Fernco fitting. Anyway that's not my problem. I'm a sheet-metal worker, I'll just grab the welder from my garage and add it on)

I'm going to be taking out those two check valves, the one in the house and the one in the pit.

FYI I got a quote on the Myers 2 wire one horsepower 12 gallons per minute submersible for just under $450 personal use pricing on our company account. Got a price of $77 for 200 feet of 1 inch coil pipe rated for 160 pounds.

I'm still hoping it's the check valve issues but i'll have most of the equipment from a quality supply house if I have to swap The pump. I suppose I could pick up the miscellaneous crap at the Home Depot since the supply house will be closed by the time I get to that point of my day.

 

[Reach4]

FYI I got a quote on the Myers 2 wire one horsepower 12 gallons per minute submersible for just under $450 personal use pricing on our company account.

That is not quite the right pump. One HP is too much. Maybe be looking at a 3/4 pump. In choosing a pump, it is the water level (allowing for the level to drop some) that is important, rather than the well depth.

WX-203 has drawdown of 9.8 Gallons @(30-50 PSI) and 8.6 Gallons @(40-60 PSI). Your pump should run at least a minute each time. A 7 or 8 GPM 3/4 HP would be a better fit. I see Meyers has 8 GPM pumps. An 8 GPM pump may put out more than 8 GPM if the water level is higher.

How large is your casing? That can affect your choice of pump and pitless adapter if you extend your casing. Your well cap will be close to the OD of the casing.

 

[The Amazing Dam]

I have no idea how to measure my water level in the well. I chose that one horse power based on me not being happy with the water pressure in my house. I know I know I know I'm not solving the problem but I'm not against replacing the well tank also if that will help my low-pressure. My shower has four body Jets and they're more like Sprinklers than Jets. I can wait another day to get the proper pump I would like to solve some other issues. This 1hp is being brought in from another one of their locations so I will have missed the boat anyways.
I am assuming that I have 160 feet of rise to the wellhead and about 150 foot run to the house with probably a 15 foot rise in that also.

 

[The Amazing Dam]

I am on my way to supply house for 3 inch brass nipple. When I remove the check valve from the wellhead I didn't have enough well pipe left to make the connection. I had no copper at the house and I had no pex fittings to get me by.

Addressing the raising of the wellhead. I have a sanitary top. That would mean that I would have to bring the pipe back down on the ground to hook up with my run to the house. This will freeze in the winter.it doesn't freeze in that pit right now. Being limited on skills in Wells I'm probably best to leave well enough alone.

 

[LLigetfa]

I'm still hoping it's the check valve issues...

The checkvalves are not the root cause, only contributors that manifest the symptom. The air still needs to have an entry point. That entry could be a bleeder orifice left in the well from a former HP tank, or it could be a rusted/cracked pipe or fitting.

As craigpump said, someone probably added a checkvalve or two to band-aid over a problem so removing the band-aid won't fix the root cause.

 

[Reach4]

I have no idea how to measure my water level in the well. I chose that one horse power based on me not being happy with the water pressure in my house. I know I know I know I'm not solving the problem but I'm not against replacing the well tank also if that will help my low-pressure. My shower has four body Jets and they're more like Sprinklers than Jets. I can wait another day to get the proper pump I would like to solve some other issues. This 1hp is being brought in from another one of their locations so I will have missed the boat anyways.
I am assuming that I have 160 feet of rise to the wellhead and about 150 foot run to the house with probably a 15 foot rise in that also.

If you pull the well pipes, you will be able to see the water level on the pipes. Of course that is not in time to select your next pump. Often the well people attach a label to the pressure tank with well info including water level.

If you need more than 8 GPM over a long period, then you either should get a bigger/additional pressure tank to go with your 12 GPM pump, or you could use a CSV to extend the fill time.

Pressure in your house during the first minute of showering will be a function of the setting for the pressure switch and your inside plumbing. That is because the pressure tank is supplying whatever water that the pump cannot keep up with. After several minutes in the high flow shower, then it would be the pump that determines if you have enough water to keep up.

Addressing the raising of the wellhead. I have a sanitary top. That would mean that I would have to bring the pipe back down on the ground to hook up with my run to the house. This will freeze in the winter.it doesn't freeze in that pit right now. Being limited on skills in Wells I'm probably best to leave well enough alone.

I had a well cap that was similar to yours, but not in such good shape. I had cleaned my pit floor with an excess of liquid laundry detergent. When I started seeing soap suds in my water, I checked the pit. There was water up to the well cap. The cap leaked, and allowed water to fall into the casing. I hooked up a sump pump temporarily, but I decide to have it done right.

If you have a 5 inch ID casing, then you would weld more 5 inch casing above. Wires come out the top of the casing, but water does not. Instead, water passes through a pitless adapter that is located below the frost line.

The pull pipe does not carry water. It is only temporarily screwed in place to serve as a lifting device.


If you have a 4 inch casing, as I do, then you either have a 5 inch casing added with an adapter in between, or you add more 4 inch casing. That is what I had done. That meant that the pitless adapter had to be a special one that provides full clearance to permit a "4 inch" (3.75 actual in my case) pump to be used. Because the pitless is below the frost line, the water will not freeze.

If I had got no water in my pit, then I would not have had the casing extended either. You might drop an aspirin etc onto the floor of the pit to see if there was water in there between visits to the pit. This flooding would probably follow heavy rain.