Toilet Double Flushes

[larrymcg]

Just moved into a 15 year old home so I think the toilet of interest is that old. It is an American Standard 1.6gpf two piece toilet. The tank seems really big to me and when flushed, the flapper stays open so long that all the water is used. This results in a double flush. The flapper looked pretty grungy to me so I replaced the flapper and flush valve assembly (the old one had one of those arms with a big float on it and there was no way to adjust the water shut-off point).

The new parts (flush valve and flapper by Korky) did not change anything (well, it's a lot quieter). But the new flapper stays open until all the water has been used and there is a double flush. There is no float on the flapper chain.

What should I try next?

-- Larry

 

[Terry]

They make flappers for 1.6 GPF tanks which close much quicker. I'm afraid it's one more trip to the store.
Since your flapper is draining the entire tank, it's made for the pre 1992 tanks that use 3.5 gallons or more.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gary Swart]

A Toto toilet.

 

[Wallijonn]

Remove the tank lid and look for the model number. Is it truly a 1.6gpf tank? It should be so stenciled.

It may not be double flushing.

Turn off the water, flush, completely drain the tank with a sponge. Pour in 1.6 gallons of water using a gallon jug, 2 quarts and one 12 oz. coke can. Where is the water mark relative to the tube and the fill valve? If it is about 1/2" below the tube top then it is not double flushing.

What does the trap way look like? I ask because at work we have a 1.6gpf with a short inverted "U" trap way and it flushes for a long time, because it is not siphonic, but is every efficient. The janitor has it adjusted for abut 0.8gpf and it works fine.

 

[Reach4]

I think your procedure would work better if you omitted the ", completely drain the tank with a sponge" part.

 

[larrymcg]

The house has 3 identical toilets and they all say they are American Standard 1.6gpf. They are labelled on the main part (not the tank) just behind where the toilet lid connections are. The other two toilets flush normally.

By "double flush" I mean that the water rises in the bowl and then flushes but the flapper is still up so more water keeps coming into the bowl and it flushes again. On the other two toilets the flapper stays up a much shorter time so that much less water goes into the bowl.

 

[WJcandee]

Assuming that your toilet has a 2" flush valve, this is the Korky flapper that you want:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_579153-868-100PK_0__?productId=50146574&Ntt=korky&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=korky&facetInfo=

You can set it so that it closes long before all the water has drained from the tank. Before installing it, flush the toilet with the lid off the tank and see how high the tank water level is when "enough" water has passed out of it, then set this flapper so it closes when the tank drops to that level. It will take a couple of iterations to fine-tune it, but then you won't have double-flushing. It's actually the kind of project that I like to do, so have fun doing it.

Let us know how it works out for you.

PS I found the same thing in my doctor's office's bathroom. It had a garbage 1.6gpf toilet. Some handyman-type apparently was called in to fix it when it was "running" and just installed the standard black Korky flapper that a lot of professionals like to use. Problem is, it now drained the whole tank. The guy probably figured he was doing the doctor a favor by "making the toilet work better", but he wasn't actually doing anyone any favors.

 

[larrymcg]

I got the adjustable Korky flapper mentioned above. I was able to adjust it to work like I wanted it to. The simple instruction on how to adjust it were a bit mysterious to me but trial and error finally led to success. I found it just about impossible to rotate the white ring from closed to open. I finally got it about half open. The other adjustment was physically easy to do but I was guessing as to what "More" and "Less" referred to: more or less time open or more or less water remaining in the tank or....
In any case, it works.
--- Larry

 

[WJcandee]

Thanks so much for the report! I'm glad you got it to work. It's always fun to hear back from those that we try to help!!

 

[McClary's Electrical]

Put a brick in the tank......if problems persist, insert another brick.

 

[Terry]

Put a brick in the tank......if problems persist, insert another brick.

Or you can just pick up the right part for that. Nobody puts a brick in a recent tank. They pick up the correct flapper.

 

[Wallijonn]

By "double flush" I mean that the water rises in the bowl and then flushes but the flapper is still up so more water keeps coming into the bowl and it flushes again. On the other two toilets the flapper stays up a much shorter time so that much less water goes into the bowl.

What's the difference in parts? In toilets? (Are you sure they are all the same model?) In other words, if you took the flapper from one of the other toilets and installed it into the first toilet, does the problem go away? Hope they still have replacement parts for it. If it had the floating ball on the brass rod then chances are it's pretty darn old and nothing may help it. idkfs.

Teach4,

You're right. But from where does one measure? Probably turn off the water valve, flush, then add 1.6g.

 

[WJcandee]

What's the difference in parts? In toilets? (Are you sure they are all the same model?) In other words, if you took the flapper from one of the other toilets and installed it into the first toilet, does the problem go away? Hope they still have replacement parts for it. If it had the floating ball on the brass rod then chances are it's pretty darn old and nothing may help it. idkfs.

Different flappers are designed to close under different circumstances. Korky makes some adjustable flappers on which you can adjust their buoyancy. I recommended one to him. He installed it. He adjusted it. It worked. Problem solved.

 

[Wallijonn]

Good job. Glad it worked out.

 

[Plunging Neckline]

I've developed strong opinions about over 30 years of DIY toilet replacement and repairs. First, as pointed out by an honest local plumber, many aging drain issues are made worse with low-flow toilets because the slope of old lines, along with sediments, corrosion, etc. were intended to be flushed by a certain volume of water that is no longer being utilized, with ultra-low volume units. One plumber house call negates a couple year's water savings, so the only thing uber-water conservation does is postpone the inevitable rationing until an even larger regional overpopulation is established. Unintended consequences, they call it.
Second, unless they've really improved flushing tricks in the past 10 years, our Toto 1.6Gpf is a joke, requiring multiple flushes during use to avoid instant backup every single time. Again, where's the real savings once the unit forces you to flush repeatedly? A slowly leaking flapper or valve (on the 3rd one in the Toto) is likely to waste more than a non-leaking older larger flush toilet used normally. We had a different siphon-style unit in a previous house, not quite so low a flow, and its working principle made it far less prone to clogging.
Third, no company making porcelain anything should dare to say bleaches and strong solutions are going to damage products; bleach is a magical cleaning product and disinfects, then dissipates better than most fancier products, as long as you don't breathe the fumes.
Last, most every style toilet is repairable, with aftermarket valves and flappers aplenty (tho' flushing may not be optimal). If your toilet is "broken", you'll know it! Cracked tank or bowl will flood or leak chronically, wasting water but also risking floorboard rot, etc. and aside from decor and style changes, the toilet should not require replacement ordinarily.

 

[Reach4]

You could try holding down the handle on your toilet to cause it to use more water. If that makes things work better, you could put in a replacement flush valve that would let you adjust the amount of water per flush.

https://www.totousa.com/product-faqs has CEFIONTECT care info that includes these items:

• What’s the best way to clean my CEFIONTECT product?

• What’s the safest way to remove hard water stains from my CEFIONTECT product?

It does not specifically forbid straight bleach IMHO, at least in that place.

 

[Jadnashua]

My personal experience is that maybe once every 6-months I might need to double flush to clear things out. This happens if there are some smaller 'floaters', verses the 'normal' stuff. Depends on diet.

If a toilet requires multiple flushes to clear a 'normal' load, it is probably not adjusted properly OR there is something either caught in the trapway or drain line. It has been my experience that the 4 Toto toilets I've installed, that they work great, and almost never require a second flush to move massive amounts of crud out.

If the water level in the toilet is too low, or the wrong flapper valve is used, or you have mineral deposits inside of the waterways after a long time, that can be fixed, often very easily. Toto did make some price leader toilets with a 2" flush valve that worked, but weren't the greatest (probably better than most builder grade toilets, though).

 

[Wallijonn]

... unless they've really improved flushing tricks in the past 10 years, our Toto 1.6Gpf is a joke, requiring multiple flushes during use to avoid instant backup every single time.

Which may mean that it's time to have your pipes cleaned out. For all I know you may have a tree root growing in your waste pipes. Is your house level with the street? Are you using silk toilet paper sheets? Have you been flushing used frying oil down the toilet?

My friend is on a septic system. He has a bucket by the toilet for used toilet paper... His house is level with the street, too.

no company making porcelain anything should dare to say bleaches and strong solutions are going to damage products; bleach is a magical cleaning product and disinfects, then dissipates better than most fancier products, as long as you don't breathe the fumes.

Bleach may attack rubber and plastic parts in the tank. If you want to use bleach, pour it down the overfill tube, then flush, fill the over fill tube with water, flush again. It's the bleach tablets which cause the problem. If you want to pour half a gallon of bleach directly into the bowl then use a toilet brush, let sit for five minutes and flush, then that is probably fine. But I wouldn't want to pour bleach into the bowl and let it sit over night to get rid of water marks. When I did that it attacked the porcelain and stained it. How did the stains get there? By not flushing trying to save water. Urine bacteria formed the stains, along with our mineralized water. It's easier to just use some dish washing detergent on the toilet cleaner brush once a week - when one sees the bowl starting to yellow - it looks like a light shadow.

If it's water stains that are the problem, pour a bottle of CLR directly down the overfill tube using a funnel, let stand over night, repeat in the morning, flush when you get home from work.

 

[WhittneyG]

I have a similar problem with my toilet in the spare bedroom. It sounded like it was running water constently, so the plumber changed the flapper. Now the toilet doubles flushes after every use. I'm not knowledgeable about toilets, but I was told it was an older low flow toilet and uses a lot of water.
Is the double flushing a problem? What happens if it goes untreated?

 

[Terry]

I have a similar problem with my toilet in the spare bedroom. It sounded like it was running water constently, so the plumber changed the flapper. Now the toilet doubles flushes after every use. I'm not knowledgeable about toilets, but I was told it was an older low flow toilet and uses a lot of water.
Is the double flushing a problem? What happens if it goes untreated?

The plumber installed a high flow flapper in a low flow toilet.
Flushing twice uses twice the water. At least twice.
They do make flappers that adjust. Fluidmaster has a nice one for that purpose.